H
hempy
Guest
The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.
Last edited:
Fem seeds and there impact on the future of the species known as cannabis.
RottenDawg
New member
Hello Hempy. I agree 100%. The fem thing is like playing Dr. Frankenstein with Cannabis genetics. What will the results be in future generations of offspring from the fem seeds? We make only male/female beans here and will continue to do so until more conclusive research has been done on the subject and we know for sure these fem beans aren't genetic time bombs. We have grown out fem lines and they seem OK and the resulting flower was just fine. So for those who don't want males I see the allure to the fem thing but elite cuttings are available and take less time to get flower/Bud. A better alternative IMHO, for those growing only for meds (flower/bud). Would love to hear Shantis views on the subject. Nice thread friend, thanks...
D
Donald Mallard
Guest
I disagree hempy ,, and yes being able to reverse males and females is a handy breeding tool ,,
it doesnt mean one has to release a female line of seeds ,,
Im pretty sure shanti will agree that there is positive sides to reversal in breeding ...
I think what got you in so much troubles over at icmag was the fact you havent really studied on the subject and the limited amount you know has caused you to form incomplete hypothesis .
I fail to see how fem seeds is going to destroy cannabis , your kidding right??
Thats just plain crazy man ...
it doesnt mean one has to release a female line of seeds ,,
Im pretty sure shanti will agree that there is positive sides to reversal in breeding ...
I think what got you in so much troubles over at icmag was the fact you havent really studied on the subject and the limited amount you know has caused you to form incomplete hypothesis .
I fail to see how fem seeds is going to destroy cannabis , your kidding right??
Thats just plain crazy man ...
D
Donald Mallard
Guest
You know looking back on that thread hempy there was some excellent information there ,, and the guys you were debating with were very patient in trying to school you up on what they were theorising about ..
I guess i could dig up the valid points on there that you dismissed ..
One has to keep an open mind hempy , when we close our minds to something we learn nothing ...
I guess i could dig up the valid points on there that you dismissed ..
One has to keep an open mind hempy , when we close our minds to something we learn nothing ...
J
JessE
Guest
Hi Wallyduck,
What do you know about genetic bottle necking in regard to the feminized seed trend? I believe a very well respected member of the community has recently wrote on the subject, and I for one, am looking forward to reading what he has to say on the matter. So lets not start off on the wrong road with condescending and disrespectful remarks, as hempy is one of the best posters and most knowledgable growers on any cannabis forum today.
Last edited:
D
Donald Mallard
Guest
I wont condone releasing female seeds as strains , i never said i would ..
The debate hempy was involved with was more about using reversal as a breeding tool , not so much about releasing female seeds to the public .
Sure id be happy to read about the bottle necking , we already know 1 on 1 matings can cause problems down the line , so using only one parent ,
well as i said i keep an open mind ...
The debate hempy was involved with was more about using reversal as a breeding tool , not so much about releasing female seeds to the public .
Sure id be happy to read about the bottle necking , we already know 1 on 1 matings can cause problems down the line , so using only one parent ,
well as i said i keep an open mind ...
R
Resinfinger
Guest
Fems
I have never really been a fan of fems. Especially chemically made ones. I try to grow as organic as possible. I don't think they should be used in widespread breeding. Theirs not enough info as to how it will affect future generations.
Genetic bottlenecking has been mentioned. I would be interested to read those thoughts and article.
I think this debate is actually only one of the potential problems that could occur with the general habits of large seed companies. Backcrossing and cubing are two that come to mind that may have a negative effect in the same manner as using fems chem made or not in breeding.
I have never really been a fan of fems. Especially chemically made ones. I try to grow as organic as possible. I don't think they should be used in widespread breeding. Theirs not enough info as to how it will affect future generations.
Genetic bottlenecking has been mentioned. I would be interested to read those thoughts and article.
I think this debate is actually only one of the potential problems that could occur with the general habits of large seed companies. Backcrossing and cubing are two that come to mind that may have a negative effect in the same manner as using fems chem made or not in breeding.
H
hempy
Guest
The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.
Last edited:
D
Donald Mallard
Guest
I think the slowly decreasing genetic materials available like thai etc has more to do with governments stamping out the production in such places , growing hybrids etc has to do with growing something more suited to ones climate , grow space etc ,, afterall you cant grow a thai sativa in the uk very succesfully ..
As far as using selfing for a tool in breeding ,, lets say we want to find out what traits lie within a female plant we like , we can do t hat by selfing and adding no new genetic material to the mix , its a research tool and quite commonly used in plant breeding .
This does not condone making female seeds for public release ,, its just researching ones stock thoroughly ..
From what i read in previous threads youve posted in that was what the guys were trying to say ..
I think i ve said that right , but ill get someone to check and add more if its needed etc ..
I have grown female seeds before ,, tested bunches of them actually , i didnt see many intersexed traits amongst them , the occasional one .. the only thing i did notice was a bit of a blandness with the smoke but that may not have been due to feminised seeds, perhaps the varieties instead..
As far as using selfing for a tool in breeding ,, lets say we want to find out what traits lie within a female plant we like , we can do t hat by selfing and adding no new genetic material to the mix , its a research tool and quite commonly used in plant breeding .
This does not condone making female seeds for public release ,, its just researching ones stock thoroughly ..
From what i read in previous threads youve posted in that was what the guys were trying to say ..
I think i ve said that right , but ill get someone to check and add more if its needed etc ..
I have grown female seeds before ,, tested bunches of them actually , i didnt see many intersexed traits amongst them , the occasional one .. the only thing i did notice was a bit of a blandness with the smoke but that may not have been due to feminised seeds, perhaps the varieties instead..
H
hempy
Guest
The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.
Last edited:
Nevil
Breeder
Just a few thoughts on feminised seed.
I've used fruiting hormones on HzC male to get it to produce female flowers. HzC squared. We still have some of these old seeds. They produced real males and real females.
I've used Gibberelic acid on NL5 to try to get it to produce male flowers. It did, about 5 flowers in a whole room full. The Anthers did NOT contain pollen. NL5 was a true female. A true female will not produce pollen. The ability to produce pollen is a hermaphroditic trait, which may be suppressed, but must be present to produce pollen.
There is a use for feminised seed in breeding, you get to see what the "males" phenotype is before crossing. 50% of the offspring will be true females, the only way to tell is to try and get pollen from the selected female. If it won't produce pollen it's a true female.
There is a better way to do things and that is to feminise the male to check the phenotype. I did this with my Red and Blue lines of Sk1 and got great results.
N.
I've used fruiting hormones on HzC male to get it to produce female flowers. HzC squared. We still have some of these old seeds. They produced real males and real females.
I've used Gibberelic acid on NL5 to try to get it to produce male flowers. It did, about 5 flowers in a whole room full. The Anthers did NOT contain pollen. NL5 was a true female. A true female will not produce pollen. The ability to produce pollen is a hermaphroditic trait, which may be suppressed, but must be present to produce pollen.
There is a use for feminised seed in breeding, you get to see what the "males" phenotype is before crossing. 50% of the offspring will be true females, the only way to tell is to try and get pollen from the selected female. If it won't produce pollen it's a true female.
There is a better way to do things and that is to feminise the male to check the phenotype. I did this with my Red and Blue lines of Sk1 and got great results.
N.
H
hempy
Guest
H
hempy
Guest
H
hempy
Guest
H
hempy
Guest
J
JessE
Guest
Hi all,
Hempy, thats a story alright my friend! Look at what kind of beast the F1 Mango Haze is compared to the S1 Mango Hazes! The vigor, or lack there of, is quite readily apparent. Though I must say, your S1s are still lovely looking! When we look at the F2s, compared to the S1s, I think it all speaks for itself. Like yourself, I received the Beta Mango Haze many years ago in which you found Queeny! Ive still got a handful of those original beta test seeds, and if I can get them to germinate, I would put my F1 Mango Haze plants up against any plant and fully expect them to hold their own at the very least. To date, the finest cannabis plants Ive ever grown, period.
Hempy, thats a story alright my friend! Look at what kind of beast the F1 Mango Haze is compared to the S1 Mango Hazes! The vigor, or lack there of, is quite readily apparent. Though I must say, your S1s are still lovely looking! When we look at the F2s, compared to the S1s, I think it all speaks for itself. Like yourself, I received the Beta Mango Haze many years ago in which you found Queeny! Ive still got a handful of those original beta test seeds, and if I can get them to germinate, I would put my F1 Mango Haze plants up against any plant and fully expect them to hold their own at the very least. To date, the finest cannabis plants Ive ever grown, period.
brock1
Active member
that's the first time i have heard anyone say they made a male female to see what it offers to a female when using it to breed. what fruiting hormones did you use Nevil to make the male turn female? i try only using true females to breed witch i find by giving them the worst year of the lives. pulling them in and out of flower before leaving them in flower for a long period of time and over wintering on the window. i think true females are better plants for breeding if you can find one whats your opinion on this mater Nevil?
Hi all
it seems that many people have biased ideas of feminized seeds, sex reverse techniques, evolution of genome and biodiversity.
Many methods are now available to masculinize (or feminize) cannabis plants without using any hormones but by using metal salts and ions. In that case reversion produces female or male flower with viable gametes (I don't know about Nevil's techniques using plant hormones).
The use of theses techniques can be very usefull for breeding purposes.
When people talk about feminized seeds, they immidiatly think of a good hybrid, that was taken for sex reversion to be then sleft polinated to produce feminized seeds and sold as femized seeds of this hybride.
In that case it is sure that you will have plants with less vigor and fragrance and higher letality: this is called imbreeding depression. It is not due to feminisation, it is just due to the fact that you've inbred a highly allogamous crop (the same happens with onions).
Using sex reversion techniques can help produce real inbredlines (true inbred lines don't exist in dioique cannabis but this is quite logical as it is intrinsically linked to the biology of the plant (a plant needs to be herma or monoique to be able to breed with itself).
the production of real inbreed lines will lead to the production of real hybrids (and not the pseudo hybrides currently sold). this is a major point for wathever crop you breed (onion in my case).
This is totally faulse male plants don't have more beneficial traits than female it just depends on the genes.
What is importante is diversity of the genetic base. The unique thing a male is going to give that no female will be able to give is the Y chromosome (in other words it gives the ability to become a male, that's it).
You say that mutations must be purged, it's the contrary that needs to be done genetic mutations is the base of evolution , what you mean is that lethal mutations, and disadvantagous traits need to be taken away, this is done by the selection process of elimination of the bad ones and by self polinisation.
Selfpolinisation make your ratio of homozygosity rise, lethal mutations are usually recessive; by selfing you help these traits to become homozygote and so to express, the plants were the lethal trait is expressed die (most of the time they don't even germinate), like that you take out the mutation provoking this death.
this is also why you have lower germination if selfpolinated lines. (I hope that I'm explaining that in a easy way..).
The loss of biodiversity is a very different problem, this is more due to the illegal aspect of the crop, but people tend to forget the biodiversty of hemp which must be looked at as part of the germplasme for breeding drug strains.
the only thing that would be a big problem if only feminised plants came to exist on earth would be the loss of the Y chromosome; sex reversion must be used in breeding programes not for an end product.
I do agree that not enought studies have been done on that mechanisms of sex expression in cannabis needs to be more studies (many scientific articles are available on the subject, see: www.googlescholar.com)
The big problem is that no regulation is done in the cannabis industry, it is very much underground, people are readdy to buy 10€ one seed of cannabis
(and one plant can produce 3000 seeds very easily...) and the people in charge of the breeding are not career breeders with the scientific background needed. 3 years to produce a new hybrid???, what a joke! even the easiest crops need at least 7 years, homogeneity is very bad (some beter than others) and varieties are not distinguishable anymore, You can't be sure to buy good quality seeds, germination is not even guarantied....... this is incredible when compared to the legal seed industry.
This is the real problem,not feminised seeds. If real breeders were in charge of the companies sex revers techniques would be more wisely introduced into the breeding programs as well as biotechnologies.
it seem that you (hempy) look breeding as a bad thing, you must not oppose breeding and loss of diversity (in some case it can be true) but diversity is the gaz for breeding to work,the two are intrinsically linked.
one problem is that modern breeding is done using a very narrow genetic base this is why everything tastes and look the same, new sources must be used.
If selecting for shorter flowering periods and higher yield have induced loss of traits this is because it has been done in a amateur way, with not enough plants and to few and easy traits.
Many things still has to be done, fortunatly the new generation is coming ...!!
cheers
Bonbolos
it seems that many people have biased ideas of feminized seeds, sex reverse techniques, evolution of genome and biodiversity.
Many methods are now available to masculinize (or feminize) cannabis plants without using any hormones but by using metal salts and ions. In that case reversion produces female or male flower with viable gametes (I don't know about Nevil's techniques using plant hormones).
The use of theses techniques can be very usefull for breeding purposes.
When people talk about feminized seeds, they immidiatly think of a good hybrid, that was taken for sex reversion to be then sleft polinated to produce feminized seeds and sold as femized seeds of this hybride.
In that case it is sure that you will have plants with less vigor and fragrance and higher letality: this is called imbreeding depression. It is not due to feminisation, it is just due to the fact that you've inbred a highly allogamous crop (the same happens with onions).
Using sex reversion techniques can help produce real inbredlines (true inbred lines don't exist in dioique cannabis but this is quite logical as it is intrinsically linked to the biology of the plant (a plant needs to be herma or monoique to be able to breed with itself).
the production of real inbreed lines will lead to the production of real hybrids (and not the pseudo hybrides currently sold). this is a major point for wathever crop you breed (onion in my case).
This is totally faulse male plants don't have more beneficial traits than female it just depends on the genes.
What is importante is diversity of the genetic base. The unique thing a male is going to give that no female will be able to give is the Y chromosome (in other words it gives the ability to become a male, that's it).
You say that mutations must be purged, it's the contrary that needs to be done genetic mutations is the base of evolution , what you mean is that lethal mutations, and disadvantagous traits need to be taken away, this is done by the selection process of elimination of the bad ones and by self polinisation.
Selfpolinisation make your ratio of homozygosity rise, lethal mutations are usually recessive; by selfing you help these traits to become homozygote and so to express, the plants were the lethal trait is expressed die (most of the time they don't even germinate), like that you take out the mutation provoking this death.
this is also why you have lower germination if selfpolinated lines. (I hope that I'm explaining that in a easy way..).
The loss of biodiversity is a very different problem, this is more due to the illegal aspect of the crop, but people tend to forget the biodiversty of hemp which must be looked at as part of the germplasme for breeding drug strains.
the only thing that would be a big problem if only feminised plants came to exist on earth would be the loss of the Y chromosome; sex reversion must be used in breeding programes not for an end product.
I do agree that not enought studies have been done on that mechanisms of sex expression in cannabis needs to be more studies (many scientific articles are available on the subject, see: www.googlescholar.com)
The big problem is that no regulation is done in the cannabis industry, it is very much underground, people are readdy to buy 10€ one seed of cannabis
(and one plant can produce 3000 seeds very easily...) and the people in charge of the breeding are not career breeders with the scientific background needed. 3 years to produce a new hybrid???, what a joke! even the easiest crops need at least 7 years, homogeneity is very bad (some beter than others) and varieties are not distinguishable anymore, You can't be sure to buy good quality seeds, germination is not even guarantied....... this is incredible when compared to the legal seed industry. This is the real problem,not feminised seeds. If real breeders were in charge of the companies sex revers techniques would be more wisely introduced into the breeding programs as well as biotechnologies.
it seem that you (hempy) look breeding as a bad thing, you must not oppose breeding and loss of diversity (in some case it can be true) but diversity is the gaz for breeding to work,the two are intrinsically linked.
one problem is that modern breeding is done using a very narrow genetic base this is why everything tastes and look the same, new sources must be used.
If selecting for shorter flowering periods and higher yield have induced loss of traits this is because it has been done in a amateur way, with not enough plants and to few and easy traits.
Many things still has to be done, fortunatly the new generation is coming ...!!
cheers
Bonbolos
