The Truth

[L33t]

JessE must still have the link form the forum , send him a pm

 

[joaquin386]

Yes a link would be helpfull

 

[L33t]

Here is Sam's reply (posted today) to this article :

I just read this and while I respect Shanti in many cases in this article he is just plain wrong. ( if Shanti really wrote it?)

"Haze brothers worked on the Haze’s and they did get to Sam and Nevil(owner of THE SEEDBANK…and then Ben Dronkers retailed Nevils strains under the label of SENSI SEEDBANK after Nevil had some jail time in Australia .Nevil was the first Seed Bank or company to exist in Holland so his legendary strains such as Northern lights 5, Ultra skunk , Nl5 Haze, Early pearl , Early girl, Shiva Skunk….and so on became the basis for a lot of offspring seed companies that followed in the 90s."

The Haze Bros were my next door neighbors in Santa Cruz in the 70's, I am still in close contact. I have asked them both about Neville and neither has ever met him or supplied him with Original Haze seeds. I started Sacred Seeds 9 years earlier then Neville, and when I met Neville he promised me not to knock-off my seeds if he could buy them, I said it's fine if you make hybrids with my varieties if the other parent was not my variety. At the time he was selling imported bag seeds from coffee shops at .25 a pop. And trying to grow but with little success, Neville within one year or two was knocking off all my varieties that I brought to him, indoors under lights, like Skunk #1 Original Haze, Early Girl, Early Pearl, and a whole lot more, none were originally bred by Neville, even Northern Lights was bred by someone in Washington state, not Neville. The varieties listed did become the basis for Neville and as stated none were originally bred by Neville.

"Sam and Nevil use to work a bit on strains together"

I never worked with Neville to develop any thing, I did not really trust him. And I was right. He lied to get what he wanted and then ran with the ball.

"but when it was revealed that Sam and his crew of Americans in Holland all were part of informants for the DEA in America on a radio program in Holland they split to the UK to do other things.

I never split to the UK I have lived in the same house in Amsterdam for the last 25 years. As for me being an informer for the DEA, either show me proof, please list a single person I ever informed on or just shut up, you are being used by Neville to cover his own misdeeds. I have never helped any police, period.
But like being accused of being a chid molester it is a charge that causes some people to lose all common sense and just lash out at the accused guilty or not.

"Sam never started or owned a seed company so his claim to all the strains that became famous years ago are not really warranted. He did however do a lot of work on Skunk and shared some seed with Nevil, but as you know for breeding you cannot just take any plant and make a strain like Greenhouse does nowadays."

I never started or owned any seed company? What a fucking joke, I started the worlds first seed company Sacred Seeds, in California in 1976. I still have all the original packages and seed catalogs from then. Yeah I did a little work with Skunk #1, like creating it from scratch, a stable hybrid of Indica and Sativa that breed true.
And I did not share seed with Neville, I sold it to him, with a promise from Neville that he would not knock off my varieties, which he did almost immediately.
To give Neville his due he did start selling seeds and posting seeds to anyone anywhere, something I was afraid to do because of my fear of the American justice system, that did catch Neville.

"When I came to Holland in 1990 with my seed stock I linked up with Nevil "

And this is why you have no idea what happened before 1990.

Neville also sold all my varieties like Skunk #1, Original Haze, and another dozen of my varieties that I developed or helped develop and had permission from the breeders to run with like the Original Haze, to Ben Dronkers of Sinsi Seeds, for a reported million, including Cannabis Castle.

About the only thing that Shanti and I agree on is feminized seed, I don't like it and have never sold one. As for all the rest, Shanti was not there and is getting his truth from Neville, whom I know is a liar, cheat and thief. I was there and am speaking the truth. I have no ax to grind, to me it is all just water under the bridge, but I don't like people spouting revisionist history like it was gospel truth. Shanti maybe you need to stick to after 1990 when you showed up on the scene, then I believe what you have to say, but brother you have zero idea of the real truth of what happened between me and Neville as only me Neville and RCC were there.
I though you liked and believed RCC, ask him.
I don't blame Shanti that much Neville is a slippery guy that has fooled a lot of people in the past, me, Ben, Shanti and a whole lot of others.
The best way to remember him is as the first to ship seeds anywhere in the world for that even I liked him, as I was too chicken or too smart to do so.
-SamS

link to Sam's original post over IC:

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=2967537#post2967537

 

[PatrickStar]

Sam doesn't think that Shanti even wrote the original inflammatory article.
http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=2970762

SamS
This was not written by Shanti it was written by J**sE.
You can read my comments about J**sE in my post #98 on page 7 of this thread.
Anyone know J**sE? I would love to chat with him for a few minutes.
Please PM me if you do know him.
-SamS

 

[L33t]

yeah I saw that PS

I would to see a confirmation from Shanti himself before drawing any conclusions myself

 

[joaquin386]

Yep that would be helpful to see if Shati wrote the article.

 

[Joe King Park]

Sam doesn't think that Shanti even wrote the original inflammatory article.
http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=2970762

I Have Not Read Any Deflammatory Comments In Any Of The Articles Written By Shanti . I Have Never Heard of Him Being Spiteful, And I'm Sure His Karma Fuels His Success.
In The Past Decade I Have Been Familiar With Mr Nice And Shanti's Genetics , And Nothing Has Been Altered Or Edited To Suit The Moment, Which Seems So Common These Days.
This Article Must Be 10 Years Old By Now
Shanti's Vision And Course ( And Cause ) Have Maintained True And Direct.
JKP

 

[Joe King Park]

After Reading The Above Article , You Must Admit To Shanti's Modesty In His Choosing Of Old School Strains He And Neville Bred.
And Customer Service , Mentioned In The 2000 Article Has Blossomed Into The Website We Are All A Part Of Today
Flavour Of The Month ? , Flavour Of The Year ?
Correct me If I'm Wrong , But Flavour Of The Decade Would Be More Descriptive Of Mr Nice Seedbank.
The Only Other Bonafide Breeder I Know That Uses His Artistic License With Such Passion is Breeder Steve , Of Spice of Life Fame.
JKP

 

[grinkeeper]

hey joe king , I cant send you a pm? add me to your list ,

 

[Joe King Park]

That's A Big 10-4 GK
Joe

 

[JessE]

Hi all,
Below is the source for the article which ran at an Italian forum. As you will see, the Skunkmans efforts to attribute this particular article to myself are false.

http://www.enjoint.info/?p=504

 

[gratitude]

the last line of that article is below...seems that's not the origin either.
(a cura di Filimagno per Overgrow.it)

But you are off the hook JessE

Grat

 

[joaquin386]

Thread erase from ICmag.

 

[shogirl]

Fantastic read, thanks # and Shanti. I come from an industry/community where my ideas were repeatedly stolen/copied to the point that I don't ever want to return, so this retelling resonates with me quite a bit. Much respect for sticking to your guns and doing your thing through all the bullshit.

ESS

Great stuff shanti, I have added ESP's quote as it speaks for my life expierance also. Peace and Love Shogirl

 

[genegenie]

The truth????????

What's the point of this thread? Shit stirring? Are we hoping for Sam to admit he's DEA and had nothing to do with the stabilizing of Skunk No1 etc?

I've no real interest in the hello magazine aspect of cannabis although it seems alot of other people on the forums do. I'd prefer the genetics to speak for themselves and that's why I'm over here in MNS.
As Shanti says ''An empty barrel makes the most noise'' and here we are shouting about how great and true we are compared to others.

The article is called the truth yet it's written by Shanti, someone who wasn't even there at the time of the Nev and Sam stuff,which means he probably got alot of his info from Nev, which could be a bit biased imo.
It's similar to the situation at Greenhouse when Franco arrived and got his side of the Arjan -Shanti/Nev story from Arjan.

I just feel this sort of stuff is starting to occur more and more over at MNS, which doesn't really make sense to me as we have access to one of the greatest cannabis genetic libraries every compiled, we should be posting more grow stuff and less crap, let the produce speak for it's self, cause it's got some voice on it.

If someone can arrange a sit down between Sam and Nev and stick it on camera then I'd watch it for sure,Shanti and Arjan too, but all the 2nd hand gossip that's floating around and posts being made by people using alias memeber names on other sites ain't for me and I feel it brings the MNS name down a bit.

This might not be the most popular post but I just felt I should say my bit.
Peace GG

P.S
Sam did call Jesse out over on icmag, looking for his pm so he could get in contact with him.
As Jesse has quite a few well written articles over here on the history of strains etc, maybe we'll be reading an article from Jesse soon if he can secure an exclusive interview with Sam.
He could be asked all the questions so many people seem to want to know the answers to?
Sam seems eager to talk, so why not?

 

[sativalvr]

A 'FUCKIN' MEN!!!! myself, I was growing for a few yrs prior to the Seed Bank coming into existence. I acquired strains from a relative who lived, and grew in Trinity Co. CA. Strains like Skunk, Afghani, Haze, Northern Lights, etc... were all around long before the Seed Bank opened it's doors; I know for I was growing them. Neville's first release of Skunk #1 was no different than the Skunk bud strain I got in Trinity, same with the Northern Lights, although the NL did get tweaked and IMHO was evolved into a great strain by Neville, he gave it character and flavor; the #2X5 being my personal favorite.

I was growing way back when, and honestly, it made no difference who created what, what I wanted were results and the more I grew the more interested and fixed I became on plant characteristics.
Jesse, Sam, you are running this mud slinging campaign for what IMHO seems to be some personal beef between you 2, and for some reason it has spilled over here. I agree 100% with the he above post for it makes no difference now. Shanti himself says he did not come in the scene until 1990 which is 10 yrs after I acquired my very first Afghani and Skunk seeds from Trinity. sure, Neville has his version, Sam has his, and honestly, since they were there you just have to read between the lines of both their versions. IMHO neither is going to tell the whole truth. As for the Arjan/Shanti deal, well, I do stand by Shanti for I take into account the dishonesty used by GHSC, like being in business since 1985, for I was growing and buying seeds back then and there was no GHSC then, and I followed the first 5 HTCC and do not remember seeing a GHSC offering.

Now we have Jesse coming in this for whatever reason and honestly, I was growing and buying seeds during that era, and yes, even bought seeds from Ca. which were labeled Sacred Seeds, does this mean Sam's right? No, but I do know what I bought back then.

My question is this; why is all this coming out when Shanti is not around? I think Sam and Jesse should have themselves a little pow wow among themselves and allow the forum to go back to growing, b/c honestly, none of this matters anymore, it was 25 yrs ago. I was growing and buying seed then and I do not even know who did what, and it did not matter to me back then, so why do you think it matters now Jesse? Sam?

 

[Skunkha]

dialog (real thoughts)

Sam: "hey man, far out, what's happening dude, hey man, I got these strains man, I'll sell them to you, just cross them with yours alright man"
(I want to hoard these strains so everyone will have to come to me...I am a chicken though to send them to U.S.)

Nevil: "yeah whatever man" (this must be what these clueless Americans say to each other, but it is not the real world)

A big difference with Nevil, even if Sam's account is completely accurate, he never changed any names of seeds or claimed he created them originally. This is completely different.

Sam sounds like he wanted to keep cannabis esoteric, mysterious, perpetuating his little cabal. Nevil on the other hand shared cannabis thereby showing to all it was beneficial. If these strains were left with Sam, the public would still believe the lies that the plant was nefarious kept by a small group of questionable characters.

One of the greatest things Nevil ever did was to liberate cannabis from the clutches of Sam. What is this "permission" stuff Sam spouts about? This is a joke. Whatever is released as clone or seed is 'out', it cannot be taken back. No sanction exists with "permission" except the person would not share anything else subsequently. Sounds like a sure recipe for broken relationships.

 

[Skunkha]

one of the 'lucky' few

I acquired strains from a relative who lived, and grew in Trinity Co. CA. Strains like Skunk, Afghani, Haze, Northern Lights, etc... were all around long before the Seed Bank opened it's doors; I know for I was growing them.
I was growing and buying seeds during that era, and yes, even bought seeds from Ca. which were labeled Sacred Seeds, does this mean Sam's right? No, but I do know what I bought back then.

This is the first time I heard anyone ever buying, though indirectly it seems, anything from Sam from the early days. Sam claims to still have packets and advertising from the '70's. The real measure of a seed company is getting the seeds actually into the hands of people, this is what Nevil did, not merely printing up a bunch of lists and keeping the seeds only in a small, secret community.

 

[sativalvr]

(this must be what these clueless Americans say to each other, but it is not the real world)

I find it funny how we Americans are called "clueless", yet we are responsible for breeding the very strains everyone is arguing about, and long before seed banks were ever heard of. Not to mention, Neville is Aussie, is he not?

Well, I guess I can give the Europeans some credit, Green Lemon was an "OK" strain.

However people are going to have their opinions and views over what had happened, even though many were not even born, or at the very least even growing in those days. something that happened 25 yrs ago has no bearing or relevance in todays seed industry, nor does it have any effect on the evolution of breeding. I guess people just need something to talk about though. Honestly, if I want to "American bashed" I would just go to Cannabis Culture forums. Seems to me like this forum is taking route of so many others; a shit throwing competition rather than sticking to growing, breeding, and guiding the next generation of growers in the right directions to preserve some of the truly great true line strains of yesteryear.

Well, so much for this being a civil and respectful forum.

This is the first time I heard anyone ever buying, though indirectly it seems, anything from Sam from the early days. Sam claims to still have packets and advertising from the '70's. The real measure of a seed company is getting the seeds actually into the hands of people, this is what Nevil did, not merely printing up a bunch of lists and keeping the seeds only in a small, secret community.

There is no evidence that the seeds were directly from Sam, frm my understanding of the whole seed thing with Sacred Seeds is that it was a collective of growers/breeders. Which would point me to the understanding that there were more involved than just Sam in breeding many of these strains. If you have ever been to the serious grow communities of Ca. there are many strains that are simly what I like to call "word of mouth" strains which are traded and shared among the "in" growers. I possess a few strains wich are not known, however it was the result of several growers, not just me. To take on a truly serious breedng effort takes time and the efforts of a few people. Back when I began to get into breeding, we worked with what we had, which the best straisn were coming out of Northern Ca. and there was no other source for seeds. who even knows if the seeds were really from Sacred Seeds, they were purchased in Ca. and came in a very simple package with handwritten print stating "Sacred Seeds" Haze. I trusted the grower whom I bought the seeds off, for we had did some trades prior to me being busted for cultivation.

My main point here is: this is supposed to be a grow forum, strains are pretty much readily available now and you, nor I, nor anyone else other than those invovled in the true dealings of '83, '84, & '85 have any clue as to what went down. Furthermore, what does it matter, I mean honestly. Is Skunk #1 going to suddenly become more potent and yield more just b/c we find out that it was some other breeder which created the strain? Is it going to change the Skunk we know today? It is not going change anytng in the world of breeding today by throwing shit at each other over some strain(s) which were developed long before anyone openly sold seeds. The laws suck, her en the USA they suck big time but the waves of time are beginning to change this. In those days, we worked closely with each other and kept our trades and dealings with seeds and cuts among only those we trusted, which quite often that was not even safe and I'm proof of that after spending a good bit n the Federal ssytem by the hands of jealous growers who set me up and gave up some of my outdoor ops.

I'm a grower, it is more than a hobby for me, it is more than just having good bud to smoke for little investment. It is knowing I can keep a strain I like gong and preserve this for other growers in the future. It is the passion to grow the very best and learn more and more with every grow, as well as get better. If a grower thinks they know it all about growing, well good for them, but i have been at it inone way or another over half my life and I still learn from others.

We need to let sleeping dogs lie and go about improving the future of this industry and place our efforts in more constructive work such as: changing the laws and views of John Q Public. Cannabis is a beautiful, wonderous, truly unique plant species with many uses and a valuable resource any place on this planet.

It just gets old after hearing all the "he say, she say" over the yrs. t i getting the same in Ca andother places where growing is a staple in the economy, growers reverting to clon only to keep their genetics from being used and profited on by others.

In ending, who really has the right to anything involving cannabis? Is it not what created such a fucked up industry as we see today? How can smething creatd and found naturally in nature be taken to the level of ownership as it is today.

 

[Skunkha]

hey sativalvr, peace

I find it funny how we Americans are called "clueless", yet we are responsible for breeding the very strains everyone is arguing about, and long before seed banks were ever heard of. Not to mention, Neville is Aussie, is he not?

some Americans are clueless about certain things at times, I have a right to say this, I am American. Yes, Nevil is Aussie-he was thinking this about Sam if Sam was saying:"don't reproduce these strains" that is just not the real world...it is only setting up people for failure

cannabis does better growing in the 'light', not in the darkness of secrecy

all the best, S.