How to Pick a good Father for breedinng

selinacantrell said:
Hi all, right after I got my patient license I immediately built a nice little grow closet. I am new at this, so for my first crop, I just used bag seed of this strains https://www.gyo.green/gyo-seedbank-cherry-pie-bst-okc-f.html for practice. I have no idea what I’m gonna get but the seeds came from an outdoor indica dominant hybrid. The seeds sprouted 28 days ago and I ended up with my legal 6 plants that are about 8” tall now and are starting their 6th node. I’ve been viewing YouTube for sexing and it should be about time for them to fess up, but every time I look closely at where they say to look for little balls, or hairs as you really want, the little flap just keeps turning into another branch and a new fan of leaves. Am I looking too soon? These are obviously indica like plants, really bushy with wide dark green leaves. 7 leaves in the latest branches. By the way, I’m using 400w worth of full spectrum led’s, lots of fans blowing around in there, and an exhaust that runs 24/7. I’m keeping it between 74 & 76* and I’m watering with 5.8-6.0 ph corrected water. My light cycle is currently 18/6. Anything else I should be doing? These things look very healthy and they’re growing like, well, weeds... I’m just scared I’m gonna end up with 6 males so any help sexing these things will be appreciated.
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It can take 5-8 weeks or longer for sex to show under 18/6.
It usually shows around the 5-7 node if plants are mature enough and healthy but I have had hazel or sativa not show until after 12/12.
When I sex in 18/6 the females usually show first,then later the males.
It can take 6-8 weeks or longer so if your plants are healthy don’t worry the sex glands will appear.
Just because your plants have 6 nodes doesn’t mean sex has or will show.It can take 10 nodes before plants show sex.
 
Others may deviate, however I believe it's substantial to choose guys dependent on structure. I mean to run a pack of Afghan Haze one year from now to search for foggy plants, so it appears to be consistent to choose murkiness inclining plants and winnow indica types dependent on structure, at any rate to disperse the group with the goal that lone a couple of make it into the bloom tent. Obviously I'm going to toss out some great potential plants in light of the fact that a cloudiness high can emerge out of an Indica looking plant, however when all is said in done the sativa looking plants are destined to give sativa impacts.
 
Growstone said:
A post from shanti..
. There are several other traits to look for in a male but these are rather advanced and need microscope help which is not really relevant for the hobby grower/breeder.
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This part has been bugging me for years!! What the fuck are we looking for under a microscope?? Shantibaba? Lol

All I could think of is trichome structure, but he says several other traits.

I'm sure THC testing would be great, maybe even terpines figure you pick the male with the most terpines and THC you will be doing pretty good.
 
Hi All

correct i meant it needs lab testing for cannabinoids and of terpene profiling, plus checking the onset of resin glands and where they form either on the stem or all over, and of course the most concrete testing is hitting different males with same female and checking the progeny plants...for me this is essential so you are sure how it is performing in the seed you are distributing to others. Stress testing progeny plants is also a good indicator of strong males.
The ratio to look for is according to Fibonacci series 1 to 1.6.
I do recall years ago with Nevil in south of Holland and before female seeds came into being, we tested to see if the males were true and not with hermie tendencies, we reversed the males much as we do for female seed production nowadays. If the reversed males were sterile it showed true male chromosomes and if they produced seeds then it showed a potential for hermie seed....so hope that helps clear up things.

All the best Sb
 
shantibaba said:
Hi All

correct i meant it needs lab testing for cannabinoids and of terpene profiling, plus checking the onset of resin glands and where they form either on the stem or all over, and of course the most concrete testing is hitting different males with same female and checking the progeny plants...for me this is essential so you are sure how it is performing in the seed you are distributing to others. Stress testing progeny plants is also a good indicator of strong males.
The ratio to look for is according to Fibonacci series 1 to 1.6.
I do recall years ago with Nevil in south of Holland and before female seeds came into being, we tested to see if the males were true and not with hermie tendencies, we reversed the males much as we do for female seed production nowadays. If the reversed males were sterile it showed true male chromosomes and if they produced seeds then it showed a potential for hermie seed....so hope that helps clear up things.

All the best Sb
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I understand how to calculate Fibonacci series but when is it the most accurate time to take measurements ?
After plant has matured and sex has shown,during stretch or after stretch?
Do I simply measure up a branch from one node to the next one up the branch?
 
We pick males by taking pollen samples from as many males as possible, and then pollenate 1 branch of the female with each pollen sample.

We try and get at least 500 seeds per each pollination. Which is very easy. We also grow really big plants in 20 gallons Promix BX with Hortilux HPS 1000w, 1150w DE Gavita, Gavita 1700e.

That way we can see the outcome vs different males.

We do pick for vigor, smell, and structure. Smell is a biggie. My nose, knows what it wants to smell.

Many times the best reproducing male, is not the nicest looking one, but passes better genetics on.
 
I like that quote from shantibaba about males that produce seeds.
just for fun and experimentation i try to make seeds with males that throw a few pistils.
usually just a few at a time.

but all the seeds that ive grown that came from two males crossed,
that turned out to be female,
were pretty good, and without any intersex issues.

that may not always be the case, just what ive experienced.

it does follow most logic as well with humans,
a male could get implants and wear makeup and look pretty passable as a female...
but a male will never be able to give birth.

i have noticed some males with pistils i have success with making seeds.
but some of them i dont get seeds.
wonder if that is any clue...
 
Broseidon said:
This is a huge topic with no definitive answers.

That little quote that Growstone posted is pretty much still the height of science regarding selecting males to this day and age. Little as it may seem...

You really never know until you made seeds with it, grew it out and then selected from that round.
Some say you even need to cross that selected female back to the original make and grow out those seeds again and make a selection to get a definitive answer on whether or not your selected original male is truly a "stud" or not.

I have looked into the topic quite a bit and to my surprise, an actually valid approach to the whole issue seems to be to look for "weak" males.
The idea being that they will be recessive in most every aspect and allow all the traits of the selected female to show through without taking anything away from them.


I believe the best marker for selecting a male is the stem rub. I have heard time and again that you will know your male when you see it and I believe this refers a lot to stem rubbing and getting strong and pronounced aromas. Much stronger than from all other subjects.

I have not discovered such a male yet.

Aside from the stem rub and hollow stem thing, you can really only look at the overall structure of the plant, how it grew, how it reacted to stress etc. etc.

But this could lead you down a path of undesired characteristics just as fast as it could lead you to desired ones. Maybe the vigor and great branching etc. etc. results in more hemp like offspring with less desirable drug cannabis traits.

Selecting for late flowering males also seems to be a good idea or at least one of the better ones possible.
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I once had a male that reeked out the veg room from the time he was a seedling. had to take every cup out of the room and smell each plant to see who it was. I carried this one upstairs, showed my dad(this was when I lived w/ him) and he said "it smells like you are harvesting, am I gonna have stuff to trim" I said "no, its this" and handed him a solo cup with a 1 inch tall plant. thought he was a girl for 2 and a half more months till he showed gender. the genetically superior plants speak loudly in the visual and olfactory language of plants.
 
MImedpatient said:
I once had a male that reeked out the veg room from the time he was a seedling. had to take every cup out of the room and smell each plant to see who it was. I carried this one upstairs, showed my dad(this was when I lived w/ him) and he said "it smells like you are harvesting, am I gonna have stuff to trim" I said "no, its this" and handed him a solo cup with a 1 inch tall plant. thought he was a girl for 2 and a half more months till he showed gender. the genetically superior plants speak loudly in the visual and olfactory language of plants.
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Nice what did his offspring carry over from him ?
 
Islandgrower said:
Nice what did his offspring carry over from him ?
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He was a grape 13 by hazeman, grape stomper x g13 hp or g13 bx2
he passes his parents traits randomly into the few girls I hit him with. w/ space queen, imagine a fruitier querkle w/ more grandparent phenotypes showing up. right now ive got the last of the seed going, and the 7 girls are all different. from a g13hp lookin lady to "OMFG why is there a hand and a half distance between nodes in veg, this has afghan in it?" 1 in 30 females is an exact replica of the space queen mom, but w/ grape gas added to skunk funk. My space queen predated Subcools Male space dude, was supposedly from California, from around the time or right before he started his male hunt, so may be from that project. but it was definitely more bcga than tga if that makes sense.

when crossed to his "identical" phenotype sister, all the plants come out the same, eerily similar, but his sister passed light stress induced hermaphroditic tendencies. generally from light or to much phosphorous. in this line it was basically slightly fruity afghan og, light gas funk, red berry and synthetic grape smells.
crossed to some canna venture chameleon kush x matanuska valley thunderfuck, it did wild shit. the CKxMVTF mom took 16 weeks to finish and had og, diesel, chem, fruit, and earthy afghan tastes and smell's all at the same time. I pollinated a small cutting and have only grown out a few as I don't want a long flowering plant based on flavor alone. we can literally find all the smells and flavors on faster frames, distil it out, and put drops in our wax hash, or on our ground up bud. and even though he could have passed quicknees, Ive only run 4 ladies from seed and they were all still 12 weekers with great smells and tasts, but the same effect as an 8 week indica.
The space queen I had was a 12 weeker, and literally made a person feel like they were taking adderall when it wasn't a needed medicine for them. everyone around me loved it. I didn't enjoy it. I fucking hate taking adderrall, and it refusing t take it was one of my 1st acts of preteen rebellion
 
MImedpatient said:
He was a grape 13 by hazeman, grape stomper x g13 hp or g13 bx2
he passes his parents traits randomly into the few girls I hit him with. w/ space queen, imagine a fruitier querkle w/ more grandparent phenotypes showing up. right now ive got the last of the seed going, and the 7 girls are all different. from a g13hp lookin lady to "OMFG why is there a hand and a half distance between nodes in veg, this has afghan in it?" 1 in 30 females is an exact replica of the space queen mom, but w/ grape gas added to skunk funk. My space queen predated Subcools Male space dude, was supposedly from California, from around the time or right before he started his male hunt, so may be from that project. but it was definitely more bcga than tga if that makes sense.

when crossed to his "identical" phenotype sister, all the plants come out the same, eerily similar, but his sister passed light stress induced hermaphroditic tendencies. generally from light or to much phosphorous. in this line it was basically slightly fruity afghan og, light gas funk, red berry and synthetic grape smells.
crossed to some canna venture chameleon kush x matanuska valley thunderfuck, it did wild shit. the CKxMVTF mom took 16 weeks to finish and had og, diesel, chem, fruit, and earthy afghan tastes and smell's all at the same time. I pollinated a small cutting and have only grown out a few as I don't want a long flowering plant based on flavor alone. we can literally find all the smells and flavors on faster frames, distil it out, and put drops in our wax hash, or on our ground up bud. and even though he could have passed quicknees, Ive only run 4 ladies from seed and they were all still 12 weekers with great smells and tasts, but the same effect as an 8 week indica.
The space queen I had was a 12 weeker, and literally made a person feel like they were taking adderall when it wasn't a needed medicine for them. everyone around me loved it. I didn't enjoy it. I fucking hate taking adderrall, and it refusing t take it was one of my 1st acts of preteen rebellion
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Very interesting. Genetics are pretty much a crap shoot every time lol . Still love to see the varieties possible.
 
Alakazam said:
On the last 'Shit' crop I did, I had an intersex male (backward) as Djshort calls them. he had only a few small female flowers. due to slight photoperiod stress I think. I hesitated to cut him off because of this trait, but the thing that kept me from cutting him off was that she had a strong blackberries smell when i rubbed the stem or shaked it, and a good structure, compact, not too vigorous nor too early to flower. So I inquired about this trait and I came across the article by Dj who highlights it and others who criticize it... By personal experiences I decided to keep it and to pollinate the 2 females 'Shit' that I had, one smelling like kiwi strawberry and the other one smelling like a classic skunk.. I didn't have the opportunity to test the seeds yet. But the fecundation has largely worked, curious to see the result.
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That sounds like it could produce some killer terps
. So would that pollen produce feminized or regular seeds?
 
Triplep said:
Hi MNS, I was wondering what were desirable traits in looking for a father. I understand this is question that could be answered in different ways depending on the needs and desire of the breeder but in general I guess im wondering if certain traits or genes are predominantly passed on from one parent. Like height, flowering time, potency ,scent, flavor etc. I have a "Small" understanding of genetics about recessive and dominant, homozygous and heterozygous and was curious on how to select a father. Any input would be great much respect to all the growers in this community. If Shanti or Nevil were able to teach some knowledge that would be beyond awesome. Thanks
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@Triplep I just posted this on a forum for single mothers by choice too. If any relevant information comes out of it, I will share it here...
 
Alakazam said:
That's what I said to myself ^^ this would be a good shit with this fem having aroma of kiwi strawberries. So I hope it will be a killer terps !!
But I'm afraid that the intersex trait will fuck it up...

So I don't really know according to DJ this trait can increase the Female / Male ratio and decrease the probability of having intersex. He also explains that this trait is often present on subjects that have other desirable traits such as good aroma or resinous. Others say completely the opposite, that this only leads to intersex... It is true that the description of Dj is rather vague... and that he is not based on anything by his own observation. Personally I don't have enough recoil or experience with this trait... I was rather used to eliminate automatically the intersex male or female whatever. but as this one had a really good trait and had only a few female flowers and appeared only at the end of flowering. and after having read the article of Dj I decided to use it. and for learning too. But in my humble opinion.. I think that it will lead rather towards intersex...
By personal learning I will try to see for myself what comes out of it... I would see !
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Yes may be likely however female plants put out a single or a few nanners when past prime flower. So it may not be intersex as a straight hermie. So may work may who knows the terps may be linked to that trait . Let me know how it goes
 
Islandgrower said:
Yes may be likely however female plants put out a single or a few nanners when past prime flower. So it may not be intersex as a straight hermie. So may work may who knows the terps may be linked to that trait . Let me know how it goes
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...
 
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Hi everyone,

so it was stated that the earliest males are usually discarded. But what is the reason for this? Is earliness not usually a desired trait? Also what does early mean in terms of male flowers? I ve seen males shed pollen after 2 weeks in flower. Would that be an ealy one?

thanks and best wishes

DjG
 
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