xx female?

Interesting

Mr Fecund said:
yep Nevil used dutch master reverse to flip his males for testing.
Click to expand...

Hey everyone. Nice topic of discussion....

Went and had a looksy at this Dutch master reverse. And for the record on their website it states in big bold letters that reverse will NOT turn a male into a female. I am guessing they mean that if you have a male and spray it with reverse it will not bud and become a female yet I am inclined to believe that it would produce female reproduction organs and allow for either a seeding or testing but the way they word it it appears they are saying the spray will have no affect on a male. Sooooo a little mixed controversy.

Anyone else actually use this reverse product?? Seems counter productive to me. Why even bother keeping a female herm around especially spraying who knows what on it during flower?? Scary to think people are actually smokin this stuff!!! Poor growers looking for the Miracle cure instead of identifying and fixing either the genetic or environmental factor??

I remember nev and kanga talking about this male testing and I was under the impression they were spraying GA or STS and again I don't think I would be smoke testing GA or STS contaminated flowers. IMO reversal to check genetic flaws or potential in future stock is a great tool yet I would have to agree with stoxx and stay away from smoking these samples.

Thanks for the contributions and discussion stoxx it's a pleasure to read your thoughts. However I don't believe anything is truly organic these days and will say that I prefer indoor grown bud and that's almost impossible to do completely "organically".... But that's a whole different ball game and a ramble for another time.... Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and opinion.

Back to the males.... Male awareness and selection is so pivotal to preservation of genetics and it's a shame to read and hear about people immediately throwing away male plants that could very well be more worthy than every female from the same pack of seeds. "elite" males are tossed in the trash every day and if there was more talk about keeping males and the ease of keeping them separate and alive we would do much better as a community. I know everyone is searching for females and more meds and I understand the limitations and different scenarios for everyone but with the female seeds movement still gaining more popularity and the lack of true breeding I fear for the male species. We have breast cancer awareness why not male cannabis awareness??

Thanks again to everyone. Real nice read and some interesting views.

OG
 
yer i saw that on the website as well but i dont think it means anything, turning a male into a female or vice verse isnt really possible as they are still genetically the same sex.

i asked nev what product he used and he told me so for me thats the first one i'd be going for.

it is my understanding that products like this are used commercially to produce seedless watermelons etc, they simply stop the plants from producing male flowers hence seedless.

i wouldnt use the product for its intended purpose either, it would be for producing female parts on male plant for smoke testing as nev did.

cheers
 
You sure Nev smoked that stuff? I don't recall reading that Nev smoked that stuff. Only thing I saw mention of was observational techniques.

Also... Could you please mention the product Mr Fecund? Unless there some policy against it. PM me please with the product. ;)
 
O in front of G said:
Back to the males.... Male awareness and selection is so pivotal to preservation of genetics and it's a shame to read and hear about people immediately throwing away male plants that could very well be more worthy than every female from the same pack of seeds. "elite" males are tossed in the trash every day and if there was more talk about keeping males and the ease of keeping them separate and alive we would do much better as a community. I know everyone is searching for females and more meds and I understand the limitations and different scenarios for everyone but with the female seeds movement still gaining more popularity and the lack of true breeding I fear for the male species. We have breast cancer awareness why not male cannabis awareness??

OG
Click to expand...

I tend to agree with you here OG. You hear all the arguments about 1:1 breeding, open pollination, gynoecious vs dioecious breeding, and I’m sure GM is not that far away…what’s better for preservation?

I was going to start a thread about keeping males. The way I keep them is kind of sad, I mean, they don’t seem to get the same treatment as the girls. I move them around, off to the side of the room, out of the room if I need space, basically neglected until I need to get some pollen. I have never seen a male hermi on me because of normal environmental factors (not chemicals) (had some genetic ones, if indeed they were actually males). You find a good one though, it’s worth keeping.
 
MJPassion said:
You sure Nev smoked that stuff? I don't recall reading that Nev smoked that stuff. Only thing I saw mention of was observational techniques.

Also... Could you please mention the product Mr Fecund? Unless there some policy against it. PM me please with the product. ;)
Click to expand...

i did its called dutch master reverse.

think they mentioned other possibilities on the forum when they were considering what to use but i dont think its actually mentioned what nevil was using when he was actually using it.

i read somewhere probably from kanga that nevil smoked the reversed male claiming it safe while kanga chose to pass it up but had a go at some offspring from him later.
 
Stoxx said:
males don't produce seeds usually just as male humans don't get pregnant.

plants aren't humans and vice versa but the basics of sex are the same. XX = female, XY = male. When your dada gives you a Y you are a son, if dada gives you a X you are a daughter. Mama only gives you one of her 2 X's.

Plants are more flexible in that triploidy and tetraploidy (3 and 4 X's and Y's) are found without severe defect. Not to be confused with unusual leaf patterns which is separate.

XYYY or XYY are typically called super-males. YY if possible is also termed super-male in asparagus. It is speculated that XYYY and XYY are staminate (mostly male flowers) hermaphrodite (environment can induce female flowers).

I couldn't find anything about YY super-male cannabis, and that may be because it does not exist.
Click to expand...

But We Always Start Off Life In The Womb As Female, Correct ? They Turn Into Either Boys Or Girls ( Or Hermaphrodites:rolleyes:)
This Explains Why Males Have Nipples
JoeKingp:D
 
Mr Fecund said:
yep Nevil used dutch master reverse to flip his males for testing.
Click to expand...

i remember nevil posting PUBLICLY here on site that he used the hormone fruits produce to reverse his males "ethylene" i do beleive is what he said

Functions of Ethylene
Ethylene is known to affect the following plant processes (Davies, 1995; Mauseth, 1991; Raven, 1992; Salisbury and Ross, 1992):

Stimulates the release of dormancy.

Stimulates shoot and root growth and differentiation (triple response)

May have a role in adventitious root formation.

Stimulates leaf and fruit abscission.

Stimulates Bromiliad flower induction.

Induction of femaleness in dioecious flowers. <---

Stimulates flower opening.

Stimulates flower and leaf senescence.

Stimulates fruit ripening.
 
Do Ripening Bananas Release Ethylene ?

I've Read Old Cannabis Books That Include Articles On The Benefits Of Using Apples To Help With The Drying And Curing Process.
The Reason I Ask About Bananas Is I Read That The Ripe Spotted Ones ( And Riper, To Black In Colour ) Help Cure Cancer.
I Read This @ Rick Simpsons Theonix Tears Website And Just Thought I'd Share.
So No More Green Bananas , Eh !
Peace,
JKP
 
Originally Posted by Nevil
Hi Brock 1
Ethylene (fruiting hormone) is what I used to turn Haze C male into a female. I remember plucking calyxes of the plant to smoke it for the first time. An enlightening experience.
GA3 is what I used to get "females" to produce pollen.

And yes Joe, ripening bananas produce ethylene.
 
Ok nice digging. Who's digging further....

Hey bh thanks for digging up the nev quote. I was waiting for that. But that doesn't explain the most recent testing. The haze c testing would have been done years and years ago. So that quote clears up the past but isn't the quote I was thinking of regarding the most recent male testing. Feel like digging deeper?? Hah I know it's either in the kanga motivation time thread or the grail thread. Probably both. Motivation is smaller thread.

It's tough to get true male impressions indoors and I think that's why most are discarded. Unless you have a dedicated space it's difficult to grow males out to their full potential. Being able to grow males fully outdoors uninhibited I think is best but may not translate into how the plant will perform indoors. But once a male is selected I agree I treat them awfully until its known that it passes desirable traits. Small containers often hacked and trimmed neglected in the corner until a week or so before its needed. Would love to have bad access to gbt and their parent room.

All the best

Og

Would feeding females more ethylene make them more femalier?? Anyone fees females ethylene knowingly or unknowingly?? Do they add it to ripening and finishing products??

Edit: just re read jkp post about nipples. Too funny. The human body is quite strange. Nice post. Are you hinting at feeding bananas?? Either through compost or just naturally. Skin or no skin??
 
Last edited:
Hey OG,

I didn’t have to dig, I have a photographic memory. Just kidding, actually I was looking for something else and ran across that quote not too long ago. He also mentioned he was looking into Ethrel but not sure if that is what he used, I think he stopped posting not to long after that. Kanga would probably know.

You’re probably right about indoors vs outdoors with males. I grow outdoors mostly but do keep things indoors (propagation and micro breeding).

The nipple thing was funny. Actually in humans, in early embryonic development, the phenotypical expression is the same, but the genotype is not. The genotype is determined by the contribution of the male. If the male contributes a Y, the embryo will be male. The male phenotype will start to develop when the genes on the Y kick in, at about 6 – 7 weeks.

What’s kind of interesting is that it has been determined that in early development the embryo tends to be feminine by default and it takes the presence of the Y, or the actions of the genes on the Y to suppress this.

Congrats to the state of WA.
 
we use ethephon/ethylene to reverse males. remember not to get any on the leaves or it'll burn them badly. Just on the inner nodes.

I'd like to see more discussion on this as it pertains to Super Males and Super Females and if that comes into play regarding Feminized seeds. I've noticed over the years that certain clones, when reversed, produce a high male to female ratio.

Any thoughts on this?
 
Maybe i understood Shanti incorrectly, but i got the gist that he is saying the following: by attempting to reverse the male to see if it produces female reproductive organs, you determine whether it is a true male. If it does produce pistil/calyx then from what i surmised is that this WOULDNT be the male you wanna use. Or did i get that wrong Shanti? Seems logical to me.
 
Stoxx said:
No, he said GA not colloidal silver. Sex in cannabis is still poorly understood. This is because it is very complex unlike in humans where XX is female, XY is male. You can have triploid (XXX, XXY, XYY, YYY?) and tetraploid (four sets). Moreover, even in pure females, extreme environmental factors can cause male parts to appear.

So there is the X and Y part of sex, but then the speculation is that there are separate genes that can affect plant hormones.

It is like if XX and XY control sex for humans but if there were another allele to fine tune estrogen or testosterone or such human hormone, then man boobs or butchy women may be possible on "pure males" and "pure females". It's not all so clear cut now is it?

So what SB was saying is if you spray GA in large amounts on males, that is a hormone that produces male parts. So if the true male is sprayed with male-ish hormone (to be sloppily lay-worded), it should not be affected. But a male with certain 'female' traits, either because it is triploid or tetraploid or otherwise somehow 'female'-ish or vulnerable to hermy tendencies, then spraying GA will cause the male to self-pollinate and produce seed. This male is undesirable is what SB is saying. He is giving us a piece of breeder gold and practical knowledge of how to get rid of hermies in males.

For females, the traditional way to get rid of hermy tendencies has been to apply environmental stress. Those that do not 'turn' are more desirable for future breeding.

Stoxx out
Click to expand...

Stoxx I am impressed with your knowledge of genetic science. I tend to agree with Shanti that genetics is pretty much maths... specifically "set mathematics" and statistics. Mendels theories need statistically relevant numbers before it all works properly on a ratio basis.

Regarding hermies... some of the strongest cannabis varieties on the planet are naturally hermie and there is a strong possibility that there may be cross linking associated with hermaphrodism. So removing herm tendencies may also be removing plants with significantly desirable traits that are not evident in non hermie plants.

Stoxx said:
Breeding without understanding some basic genetics will not likely yield anything of interest.

Just slamming your two favorite strains is what every 'seed chucker' does. It is not really breeding though many people claim to be breeders.
Click to expand...

I see nothing at all wrong with selecting the best plants from a small selection and crossing them. This is breeding and it is wrong to say that people need to understand complicated breeding science to actually be a breeder. You will get great plants as proved by many of the Californian indoor strains which are bred from very small selections.

After all MNS Haze strains come from a tiny gene pool of Haze genetics. Just three plants isn't it?

The problem is that you lose genetic diversity, you fix bad traits and as you said you lose most of the recessive traits that only show up in a large selection of plants. However some of the best horticultural plants both in cannabis and other garden plants were actually bred by accident or by complete amateurs and not by plant scientists picking from thousands of plants. I personally agree with your approach Stoxx but I would not discourage anybody from simply having a go even if they know nothing at all about breeding science.

On the subject of ethylene... when I managed orchards it is common practice to hold fruit in a coolstore and then hit it with ethylene gas just before it is shipped so that all the fruit ripens at the same time. That's why fruit in supermarkets goes rotten so fast. It's been hit with ethylene.

Hormones like GA are regularly used to produce seedless grapes and stop chrysanthemums bolting. So I would imagine we are all eating stuff treated with ethylene and hormones without knowing.

Having said that I am an organic outdoor grower 90% of the time. I only use traditional methods like stressing plants to see how bad the hermaphrodism is but I do not personally worry about it much. On the contrary I find it interesting to breed with sexual mutants just to see what I can produce.

All of this is my own personal opinion and experience and I do not say that I am right and anybody else is wrong. Just contributing to the discussion in my own way because I have been breeding cannabis for twenty years plus and I find the subject very interesting.

regards

scrubdog
 
Last edited:
hormone

Stoxx said:
XXY, called Klein Felter, is typically associated with female-leaning attributes like 'man-boobs' or 'smaller balls'. Infertility is common. YY for humans is a 'no-go'.
Click to expand...

This is also commonly caused by hormone inbalances and not just by genetics. Excess prolactin causes man boobs and small testicles as does lower than normal testosterone and vice versa in women.

That's why sex change candidates are given hormone treatments. Somewhere once I read research on spraying cannabis with crushed up anti pregnancy pills and with testosterone to try and initiate sex change. From memory there was no definitive result.

Any damage (physical or disease) to the pituitary gland in humans causes all sorts of weird changes in gender markers (breasts, testicles, hair on face.. etc). There is also a growth regulatory function and hormone inbalances can cause both gigantism and dwarfism.

How this relates to cannabis I'm not sure. Just pointing out that characteristics can be manipulated both at a genetic and hormonal level and this does relate to both humans and plants.

Then there is the use of products like colchicine to induce tetraploid cell division in cannabis. That used to be all the go once upon a time.

How do you make a hormone? Pull down her genes.
Sorry... that's a geeky plant science joke.

scrubdog
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top