The True Origins of Haze- BigHerb's Article

[itsbenfun]

Really well i have been growing haze hybrids since 2002 non stop and trust me i am far from confused.

I saw ssh plants go 18 weeks in flower even.

I did not see one Neville's haze come in before week 18.

All the 50% haze hybrids i grew the fast ones i called were around 14 weeks and they were shithaze and even some of them went to 16 weeks all the rest of the 50% haze hybrids came in from 16 weeks and up to 18 weeks.

Clones of the seed plants came in faster but not all some still took as long as there seed mums.

Some people have found faster i am talking of my experiences.

You selected wrong.

 

[itsbenfun]

Punto rojo x Thai equals haze. Period.

 

[hempy]

The one point so many people are missing here is this the importance and direct impute quality sativas have played in the canna sean and yet for so many years and even in main stream cali canna sean the focus is still on kush or indica lines that look all Crystal and hold big back appeal.

They picket speed of flower and bag appeal over raw power and quality only a sativa can bring to the table that is the fact like it or not and what most breeders try and produce is a strain that trys to carry both sides into a resistible flowering line.

The pure sativas that give you long strong affects do not give you bag appeal or do they give you short flowering times its a trade off and it just happens most want that over pure sativas that is why many have been lost over the decades.



itsbenfun how do you know what my selections were like your assuming and trying to bait me in short and trying to start an argument here.

Shanti sampled my selections and he was very imprest i only selected from the f1 seeds so how do i control the times these seeds grow out in i dont.

 

[itsbenfun]

No bait. Just the truth. Sativas rule. Hybrids of such rule further. USA, Denmark or some far fetched dream... no matter.

Peace and prosper are at hand so indulge. Sides and government only mask the true problem.

IBF

The one point so many people are missing here is this the importance and direct impute quality sativas have played in the canna sean and yet for so many years and even in main stream cali canna sean the focus is still on kush or indica lines that look all Crystal and hold big back appeal.

They picket speed of flower and bag appeal over raw power and quality only a sativa can bring to the table that is the fact like it or not and what most breeders try and produce is a strain that trys to carry both sides into a resistible flowering line.

The pure sativas that give you long strong affects do not give you bag appeal or do they give you short flowering times its a trade off and it just happens most want that over pure sativas that is why many have been lost over the decades.



itsbenfun how do you know what my selections were like your assuming and trying to bait me in short and trying to start an argument here.

Shanti sampled my selections and he was very imprest i only selected from the f1 seeds so how do i control the times these seeds grow out in i dont.

 

[hempy]

No bait. Just the truth. Sativas rule. Hybrids of such rule further. USA, Denmark or some far fetched dream... no matter.

Peace and prosper are at hand so indulge. Sides and government only mask the true problem.

IBF

Truth how is it the truth when there my plants i grew and yet you comment and say in your wards You selected wrong. Give me a brake mate how about you show me the respect you your self would expect from me in future.

 

[itsbenfun]

Truth how is it the truth when there my plants i grew and yet you comment and say in your wards You selected wrong. Give me a brake mate how about you show me the respect you your self would expect from me in future.

Well I will apologize for said selections. Here and now. Hempy my point is simple. Great sativa x great sativa equals good for all. No argument. Lets get real though, haze a and c are thoughbacks of yesteryear.

Haze A and C being cousins.

IBF

 

[hempy]

Well I will apologize for said selections. Here and now. Hempy my point is simple. Great sativa x great sativa equals good for all. No argument. Lets get real though, haze a and c are thoughbacks of yesteryear.

Haze A and C being cousins.

IBF

well no arguments there good sativas are what people love but most dont want the time they take to grow or the look of the flower they end up with and why there hybridized mate.

I thort Haze A and Haze C came from the same batch of seed so that would make there siblings.

 

[itsbenfun]

well no arguments there good sativas are what people love but most dont want the time they take to grow or the look of the flower they end up with and why there hybridized mate.

I thort Haze A and Haze C came from the same batch of seed so that would make there siblings.

That's my point, and biggies I believe. In yesteryear they grew columbian and Oaxaca, Thai sticks and Afghanistan hash.

Truth may never be told.

Punto rojo. X. Thai equals HAZE.

IBF

 

[itsbenfun]

The cousin thing comes from Nevil. He said they were hybrids and half sibs at best.

IBF

 

[Kangativa]

Something else that might need to be considered back around the time the Haze was made was climate conditions.
I know in the 3 years I grew there we had 2 Indian summers and one that was foggy, which I believe was like this season just gone for the Norcal boys, hence Bushy the problems that GanjaD had finishing the SSH off.

Now in a Indian summer season the Sativa's had a chance to go longer and when you add that to growing in a green house, I believe it is highly possible to finish a Thai off.
Even since I first started growing Mullum the seasons have changed on the coast to the exstent that it is now harder to finish Sats off without the problems of mold due to rain during the heading season, something that never really happened as often in the early 80's.

Also the Haze that I used to do My Mendo Girl defenitely had Thai in it as it has that old school taste that really only comes from Thai and I know that Haze had been in the Norcal area for a long time.
Also could it be possible that maybe from all the Thai sticks that came to that area there wasnt maybe a early maturing pheno.

The thing is Bigherb has actually made the effort to get all the possible info he could to do a article.....something none of us have done, wheather it is right or wrong, will possibly never be proven because we werent there to refute it, so we have to go on what people say that were.
As far as I am concerned it is a good article and I did enjoy the read, looks pretty good in the Mag as well.

 

[hempy]

Something else that might need to be considered back around the time the Haze was made was climate conditions.
I know in the 3 years I grew there we had 2 Indian summers and one that was foggy, which I believe was like this season just gone for the Norcal boys, hence Bushy the problems that GanjaD had finishing the SSH off.

Now in a Indian summer season the Sativa's had a chance to go longer and when you add that to growing in a green house, I believe it is highly possible to finish a Thai off.
Even since I first started growing Mullum the seasons have changed on the coast to the exstent that it is now harder to finish Sats off without the problems of mold due to rain during the heading season, something that never really happened as often in the early 80's.

Also the Haze that I used to do My Mendo Girl defenitely had Thai in it as it has that old school taste that really only comes from Thai and I know that Haze had been in the Norcal area for a long time.
Also could it be possible that maybe from all the Thai sticks that came to that area there wasnt maybe a early maturing pheno.

The thing is Bigherb has actually made the effort to get all the possible info he could to do a article.....something none of us have done, wheather it is right or wrong, will possibly never be proven because we werent there to refute it, so we have to go on what people say that were.
As far as I am concerned it is a good article and I did enjoy the read, looks pretty good in the Mag as well.

hi mate good to see you back as for Thia being grown in say southern California back in the day i have no dought that Thia was grown in the USA and not just in California ether i wouldn't be surprised if it was grown in Florida and the the deep south as lots took genetics back from the war with them even back to Hawaii.

The Thia was the SK1s of that time every one was growing it that had an environment to grow it in along with other lines most talk about today like they were mythical .


The highland Thia was faster than say the Thia found at lower elevation but it still took ages to grow.

Fact is no one really knows what haze is they are all guessing mate but its highly possible Thia / columbine was what haze was first then other sativas added threw the years but know one knows 100%.

No disrespect to bigherb but there have been articles written about haze long ago and in resent times from Jesse and British hemp also.

The fact is mate big in one hand says Sam's info is not credible as Sam has changed it a few times then says it is when it suits his bigherbs article and the fact Sam has sed for years there was only 2 haze brothers and now big says there is a third being G and Sam now supports it that alone has shown me that nothing about the haze story is worth believing any longer.

And why are the guys that did the real work here like Sam and Neville to name just 2 who got the early haze seed that then grew them out found what he did selected and then hybridized the haze to other lines spreed them to all corners of the world and not even be given a paragraph in this story i think its very odd to not talk about the real history of the lines that made haze famous in the first place.

 

[Elmer Bud]

G`day Hempy
The True Origins of Haze- BigHerb's Article

And why are the guys that did the real work here like Sam and Neville to name just 2 who got the early haze seed that then grew them out found what he did selected and then hybridized the haze to other lines spreed them to all corners of the world and not even be given a paragraph in this story i think its very odd to not talk about the real history of the lines that made haze famous in the first place.

As the title suggests Hempy this article is about the origins , not the distribution and development of the line . That would be why NVL and Sam are not mentioned .
I also think that Columbian was the line used in the original crop and is discussed at length .

Thanks for sharin

Elmer Bud .

 

[manivelle]

it's a sad story ! supposed story..

 

[hempy]

G`day Hempy
The True Origins of Haze- BigHerb's Article


As the title suggests Hempy this article is about the origins , not the distribution and development of the line . That would be why NVL and Sam are not mentioned .
I also think that Columbian was the line used in the original crop and is discussed at length .

Thanks for sharin

Elmer Bud .

Well thats a valid point elmer and if that is the case then there is little to say on this topic and there was no point in writing this or any other article on haze is there as the origins being the genetics that went into creating haze is unknown as are the real people who created it end of topic in short if were going by what you just sed.

Columbian you say well if those that grew out the pure haze seed and worked it dont know what is in the pure haze how do you know whats in haze elmer you dont so dont assume.

 

[nOpe]

Im not really good at genetics or anything related to breeding plants. Do you guys think that it will ever be possible to identify the lineage of strains via DNA? Diggin in the history of a prohibited plant is exhausting as it looks like. I hope tech makes that job easier sooner or later. 5 years, 10 years? I hope the medical MJ laws in the USA stay as they are (or get even better), I think thats the place where a lot of good data is collected right know and in the near future.

Take a mother and father of unique line like... black widow, take examples of their offspring MedicinMan, SharkShock, LaNina, BW itself and its mother and father plant. This should be enough data to get a "genetic footprint" of the BrazillianSativa female and the IndianHybrid male. Or is that not really possible? ^^

 

[Hemphrey Bogart]

I think a good argument has been made for the original haze being a backcrossed Colombian - punt rojo, but perhaps equally an argument can be made that the haze that became famous as the world's best dope, was the later hybridised model of Colombian, Mexican, Thai & Indian that was brought to Holland by Sam, and the Colombian, Mexican, Thai, Indian and Afghani that was disseminated around the world by Nevil.

If we look at the early literature of which there is little, haze doesn't get labeled as the world's best dope until well after the fact. This is understandable given that of the hundreds of tonnes of cannabis that were being consumed in the US every year - 0.000000001% was grown by G and RL In fact by the time R wrote about that Haze Bros New York visit in High Times, it was reported that they considered their best offering an indica!! Seems likely to me that the really good haze product was the later one offered by Sam.

Remember too, that Sam is on record as saying that the best landrace he ever encountered was Thai, which gives weight to the argument that the best haze was the later product that Sam contributed the Burning Bush to.

But the man who really entrenched the myth that Haze was the world'ss best dope was the man who grew the largest numbers of it to select from, and then crossed it to the best strains he could find.

That man was Nevil.

Anyway I don't see anything wrong with what bigherb has written. He expresses confidence in the information collected from his sources. Naturally this doesn't mean that the story is correct. But it seems uncontroversial enough and contradicts little of what we know about the original haze, which is next to nothing.

Do I think the original haze was the world's best dope? Not likely.

Do I think the original haze was the best dope being grown in northern California at the time? Quite possibly, I just don't think the select SE Asians could be finished in northern California.

Have a look at Ganja D's fine thread in the outdoors growing section of ICMAG. He couldn't properly finish of an SSH before the cool weather interceded.

Thank you for that post, Bushy. As a born and bred Californian, I'd have to agree with most of it. When I smoked my first joint in 1980, it was golden in color and it was an imported sativa of some sort. The thing that made that joint so special was that we started to see less and less of those varieties here as the 80s went on.

In general, people in California like things easy. We're not lazy, but we don't want to work too hard. We're a pretty mellow bunch around here. We want our crops to come in before the rains come in the winter. Skunk was easy to grow and finished before the rains came, haze and other sativa dominant (columbian, mexican) varieties were hard to grow and wouldn't finish without a greenhouse most years. Not only that, but the market had changed drastically as well.

I would say that during the coke-fueled late 70's, early-mid 80s in California, most smokers I was associated with started looking for a more "stoney" effect, rather than the electricity of a sativa or haze variety. This would help explain why Sams took the haze over to the Dam. It's the only way it would have been preserved and/or worked into hybrids since very few here wanted to grow something that didn't really have a market. Everyone was getting away from long flowering sativas and Sams knew this. Skunk and other early finishing varieties had completely taken over the scene by the time Sams got to the NL. California was way ahead of the curve on the haze and had already moved on by the time Nev got his haze seeds and worked his magic.

Nevil didn't reinvent the wheel, but he did vastly improve it evidenced by his body of work so far that has touched just about everything out there today. From reading what he has written on here, Nevil took something that was difficult to grow and made it more palatable to the average grower without compromising too many of the original traits of the haze smell, taste and high. Nevil did the job that Sams either couldn't do or didn't want to do. Not only did he do the breeding work, but then he turned around and shared his creations with the rest of the world. Sams got upset because Nev took what he got, did something extraordinary with it and then proceeded to go spread the genetics around the world.

It still bothers me when I read where Sams has said stuff like: "I told him not to make pure haze or hybrids...." as a reason to trash Nev.

Uh, Hello Sam??? Nevil bought the seed from you, so they were his to do with as he saw fit. For example, you can't sell a car you built to another individual and say "I'll sell you this car, but you have to promise you won't go over 70 mph." Nope. Sorry. No dice.

Sam got paid a good amount of money for his seed, Nev made some of the greatest hybrids of our time with the help of those seeds and growers and smokers around the world were the main beneficiaries. Everyone came out ahead!

I agree that Big's article isn't about what happened after the haze came along, it was about the ORIGINS of haze, which I think we can all agree was being grown in California in the late 60s to the 70s, and NOT in Amsterdam. Haze's development in the 'dam came much later than most would like to admit, I think.

While folks in California in the 60's and 70's were smoking good Mexi and columbian sats as well as excellent imported thai sticks and haze, folks in the 'dam were smoking mostly imported hash mixed with tobacco.

HB.

 

[coop]

When did CAMP start too? early 80's i think. That forced a lot of the cali growers to switch to early maturing hybrids that would be done before end of sept and when the copters where flying.

 

[cannatari]

The cousin thing comes from Nevil. He said they were hybrids and half sibs at best.

Theory: If the beans that Sam sold Neville came from his days trimming the greenhouse-grown Haze, I wonder if he pocketed some pollen as well and what he sold Nev were actually seeds that he made himself. Could be why they're "half siblings" and why Sam claims that his Haze is more original than Neville's.

Peace.

 

[Brick Top]

And why are the guys that did the real work here like Sam and Neville to name just 2 who got the early haze seed that then grew them out found what he did selected and then hybridized the haze to other lines spreed them to all corners of the world and not even be given a paragraph in this story i think its very odd to not talk about the real history of the lines that made haze famous in the first place.

I would guess that the answer is found in the title of the thread; "The True Origins of Haze."

If someone were writing about the true origins of the automobile they would write about those who made the early steam powered cars and those who made the electric cars that followed and then maybe even those who made the first gasoline powered models. But it would not be amazing, or a slight or insult, if Henry Ford was not mentioned even though he was the greatest innovator when it came to automobiles. He changed them in ways previously not imagined, but he was not involved in the origin of automobiles. He fit in later down the timeline well after the origin.

Unquestionably Sam and Nevil did great things, but no matter how great they were/have been/still are, if they were not involved in the true origin of Haze, if they were not there on day one and two and three, season one, etc. and only came in later in the timeline of Haze, then they would not be part of the origin of Haze and not part of the story of the true origin of Haze. They would better fit in, in the progression and evolution of Haze than the origin.

 

[Hemphrey Bogart]

When did CAMP start too? early 80's i think. That forced a lot of the cali growers to switch to early maturing hybrids that would be done before end of sept and when the copters where flying.

Good point, Coop. Also, most Californians who were around at that time remember Operation Green Merchant as sort of a turning point in the whole weed game...at least locally.

HB.