Seed Mothers vs. Clone Mothers

I was just wondering what fellow cultivators prefer when keeping their mom or dad's around.

Do you think it is better to keep a the mother/father from original seed around, or is it better to keep the clone of the mother/father instead.

Chana

I think it is better keep a clone, as a mother. This is better because in my experience clones are strongest in the 3rd through 10th generation, depending on the strain. This might be due to the age or maturity of the plant though. There is such a thing as genetic drift. But if you have a stable strain you won't usually see this for 10 generations or more.
 
Mr Kyle

My biggest bitch with people on forums is they have no reading comprehension...

If I say "piss on your parade" it's not an insult,,it's just old school slang
for bring bad news,,or share bad news...big difference from an insult.

sorry you're so thin skinned that his harmed you...


You go on to comment a bunch of crap about people not speaking from experience but rather from what they read..and
some lame comparison between root aphids and a virus...

apples and oranges..



If a plant is infected it is spread throughout the whole plant very quickly as I have already posted a link to this documented fact long ago..
a plant has a vascular system as do many living things..
The virus is spread top to bottom in short order of it becoming infected..


So if you think you are going to cure a sick plant with a virus by applying harpin proteins after it has already been infected ,,go right ahead..


I happen to speak from nothing but hands on experience for 2 years with the virus.


another quote from Kyle
"Most forum members want to just share VALID info around here and maybe make a couple like minded friends"


Umm yeah that's exactly what I did,,,shared valid info absolutely mirrored to what you are claiming,,my results are posted..








Hey Cabron,

Harpins last for three weeks after application.

My thoughts in regards to immunization was that the uninfected tips (which I was taking my new cuts from) would also be immunized. Wouldn't you protect the cuts?

I too have read about how things are impossible to treat(usually in HighTimes mag), like root aphids were at first. But guess what Cabron, you can drown root aphids with smart pots and water. You don't even need to buy ANY chemicals. Simple, and I figured it out with trial and error, instead of listening to people telling me to get rid o ALL my plants. Horrible advice, one of my plants is 22 years old, get rid of it? I'm glad I did not follow my co-workers advice. He was a know it all grower with three years experience growing and 20+ smoking. Heh.

Most of the people on this site are not into perpetuating ideas we have read. Most of us here share things WE have personally observed, you could probably be more helpful if you did the same thing.

KB 8)_~


"Most of us here share things WE have personally observed, you could probably be more helpful if you did the same thing."

The sticky on icrag under the handle of wandering Roman is mine....

You wanna educate me on any mosaic virus,and hands on experience ,,just say so I'll go get a coffee because I'm sure you are gonna be awhile..
 
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advertising what???

Used Pontiacs?
Chevrolets??


wanna keep on track...

I wanna see these cured plants you speak of...

That's what I'm interested in,,having played with it so much

And tell me what strain or pheno you have that is worth all the effort
I'm actually humbly interested in this ..
 
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What's the makeup of deadwood?

Nice looking plant.

Gen 3-10 the best. BS

I have to agree with you cabron I've run strains for years and can't see a diff. From gen to gen
 
Bubba Kush from Katsu Bluebird...
I crossed her with reversed pollen from the real
sweet pink grapefruit cut...


This gal stood out amongst a roomful of keepers...
 
No BS in advertising Cabron.

That is what your doing here right?

KB 8)_~




Is it The deadwood that I am accused of advertising Kyle??

Umm really Kyle,,if that's the case that just stinks of unwarranted
envy and jealousy...

I sent that cut out to med patients all over the states on my dime..

and only asked that she be shared far and wide in return....

your comment is laughable and immature,,,nice one



The reason I pictured her is it's a feminized cut that is documented
in age,and relevant to my discussion.


But of course if you wanted a cut I'd charge $2500.00(this is of course a joke,,,making humor of the advertising comment)
 
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Please tell me what magically happens at gen 11 and after?

And if you wanna make a claim as bold as saying that there is genetic drift,,,
then give me some facts please....otherwise I call BS
Hell I call BS on the (theory) of genetic drift altogether...

The plant is either healthy or it has a deficiency or disease...

There is no GD.....



Here's a Gal that is at 8 years of age and from a strictly Feminized conception
I know I made it!

Gee hasn't imploded yet!! DNA still intact! must be the exception ....



Nothing get's me more fired up than perpetual BS!!!

I'm going to ignore the insults and other ridiculousness.

But in answering your question about the magic 11th generation, nothing, that was a broad generalization. In my experience, clones do deteriorate and change subtly over a period of years. I had one clone, which I kept for around 6 years, it had deteriorated slightly in that time, for example the leaves had become kind of wavy, but it was still dynamite, up until I lost it, unintentionally, when I had to shut down because of an emergency.

but I have always noticed that the clone seems to get progressively better up until the fourth or fifth generation, and then starts a very gradual deterioration. I have noted that some strains deteriorate more quickly than others. I had a very promising hybrid once that was dynamite for the first three generations, but then it started deteriorating rapidly, and two generations later it was worthless.

I don't specifically know if this is due to "Genetic Drift" but 12 years ago when I was breeding that seemed to be the predominant theory, as to why many strains start to deteriorate after several generations.

That is great that you have a strain that is still stable after 8 years, but surely you have experienced some strains deteriorating after many generations, haven't you? And if you have, what would you ascribe this to, if not "genetic drift".
 
Joshua earlier in this thread another member mentioned that shanti takes new clones every year. He has had strains for at least 10-15 years. That makes some of his plants at a minimum 10th gen. The majority of people here would say that the quality is the same from when they were started.
 
Please dont take this as disrespect but anybody can cross pre-98 bubba to what every and get something special...

I dont see your diligence or relevance with regard to creating a plant that is truly yours. My understanding is the pink grapfruit is from Spice of Life.

So again, where is your work in the creation?

Now if you told me you went to Bekka and selected a landracce that had been grown out by Haj Ahmed for over 50 years and then you worked and and gave the seeds back to Haj and asked him to grow them for another 50 years, I would say, RESPECT!

Until then you are advertising a cut. Good for you for sharing with sick people. Do you need to be comedend or patted on your back for helping. We should be doing this universally.

I think you need to grow up. Kyle, Elmer and Bob are all older than us, and at minimum you lack common respect for anything, at least their age. Where are your manners man?

Also, how did yo know you had Mosiac virus, when you stated that you never sent any of your plants to a lab to have CG or SA testing.

Cabron, you coming from Detroit where there are a lot of accomplished medical growers and breeders.

The respect you seem to be demanding from people on this forum I believe is premature. Develop your cultivars. When you have at least 10 keepers and you have made proven lines with what ever effect your are selecting for, then I am sure your respect that you seek will be shared, until then it seems to be a lot of smoke and mirrors and drama from you.

It you really have all this skill you would not be on this forum policing the boards and looking for fakers...

Keep this on track please or kindly do not post in my thread.

Ma Salam,

Imran
 
Thank you Chana.

FYI Cabron regarding Bubba kush. I gave my cut of Bubba to a 60+ year old man with severe gallstones and 2 complete runs under his belt. He had me over three times a week to answer his inquiries during that run. He won 3rd place in the indica catagory of the HT Medical Marijuana Cup.

You have a similar cutting, except you added NL2 to the equation. Not so groundbreaking Cabron.

IMO you seem like you have alot to prove. So prove yourself by contributing to the topic or giving away free seeds HERE at MNS. You will not prove anything by attacking people around here, all you will get is ignored.

Peace,

KB 8)_~
 
Greeting MNS Crew!

Hi Kyle, I would have to agree with your thoughts regarding drift. I am by no means an expert and as I harvest, I humbly expand my perception of what is what and who is who... I also commend you on sharing a plant that so many people would rather hoard or charge a person $2,500, or worst cross to something they had no hand in creating and then try to pond if off as their own work or cultivar. That was, imho, wrongly advertised.

For the record, any sick MNS family members here who has more than 150 post I will send my pre-98 BK to you. I am not looking for anything, just would like you to be happy and enjoy...

I would think that gentic drift regarliess of generation occurs... i.e. age or evolution. With anything in our world, especially living, there would have to have prime or peak years when it is at its most fertile, potent, etc. Change the dynamics, i.e. indoors and we have created a man made problem...

We can say the same for human species. The development of children, young adults and then grown men and women to once gain becoming a child again...

So where in your life, is it the best, or what stage...

Again, subject to the persons living environment and what has occurred and lead them to where they stand today.

You ever hear the Tupac poem "A Rose that Grew from Concrete".

I believe a lot of what is discused here is subjective to the growing environment, the grower and the genetics they have access to...

So I will not be so vauge but can say that after receiving my master kush cut from Quebec growers, who had it in their stable for decades and and then almost a decade with me, I have seen it lose vigor in my environment.

I am not going to sit here and speculate why this occurred, because after I successfully ran her outdoors, and after taking a fresh cutting of what I felt was now a rejuvenated specimen, she was good for another few years locked in the basement under HPS lighting... my love affair with Master Kush Quebec cutt is gone and I can only say the 8 years I had with her taught me many things...

Fortunately, I do not have medical diagnosis to use cannabis, and the same people I give my crops to, that are terminally ill, can utilize any drug you give them, natural or synthetic with a different threshold and tolerance which far exceeds anything I am able to cope with on a day-to-day basis.

I was recently at a friends house, who is in a wheeler... we are working on building a accessable garden that he can work and supply himself his needed meds. Until I was able to stay with him for many hours, I see first hand what medical marijuana does for him.... so if he needs 5 or 10 grams a day to live a fruitful and humble life, I am going to SHARE and hopefully get him to win some medical cups too...

I have seen some of my sick friends take oxycotin, and still be the same person, i.e. not be like a 16 year old who take the same pill and now becomes a crack head or walking zombie... when a person is truly in pain, marijuana lets there mind and body still be here in the waking world... yet their soul is interconnected to all that is good in their lifes...

As for me, not really sure right now, how this is relevant to the my initial post but it is what it is... and I think the negative posting by a family member lead me here.

Peace,

CM
 
Joshua earlier in this thread another member mentioned that shanti takes new clones every year. He has had strains for at least 10-15 years. That makes some of his plants at a minimum 10th gen. The majority of people here would say that the quality is the same from when they were started.

I have been following the thread. And I like Shanti's Idea about taking a fresh clone every year. And it is a real relief to hear that people's clones are not deteriorating after many years. Aside from a few flukes like the one I described, I have also not really experienced much by the way of "genetic drift"
for the most part, my strains have been very stable.

Has anyone else noticed leaves on thier plants, getting kind of wavy or crinkly after many years? I experienced that with the only clone I ever kept longer than 3 or 4 years, although, as I stated before it did not seem to affect the form or potency of the bud.
 
I also noticed that the crinkled leaf effect in some cases was passed on sexually to the next seed generation. Odd isn't it?
 
For give me if I am misunderstanding but I thought genetic drift would refer to generation after generation from a male female mating.
If you have a cut that is vigorous and doing well and then over a year or two it loses vigor and then its placed outside (as shanti reccomends) and then its brought back inside and it basically is the same as it started is that Genetic drift?
To me it seems that would be a health type issue or something along those lines and not genetic drift. Are you saying the genes actually change back and forth and eventually end up back the way they were?

Josh I have noticed that crinkly/twisted leaf. I contributed it to stress but I dont know. I did not do any breeding with it so I cant say it was passed along or not.
 
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For give me if I am misunderstanding but I thought genetic drift would refer to generation after generation from a male female mating.
If you have a cut that is vigorous and doing well and then over a year or two it loses vigor and then its placed outside (as shanti reccomends) and then its brought back inside and it basically is the same as it started is that Genetic drift?
To me it seems that would be a health type issue or something along those lines and not genetic drift. Are you saying the genes actually change back and forth and eventually end up back the way they were?

Josh I have noticed that crinkly/twisted leaf. I contributed it to stress but I dont know. I did not do any breeding with it so I cant say it was passed along or not.

Hi Resin and Joshua,

For the sake of this thread, and in relation to cutts or clone, genetic drift to me is defined as environmental factors, causing the change in the original specimen.

So if it is disease, pest or lost of vigor from the latter, then the plant is genetically the same, but has now evolved or regressed with weakened characteristics because of its disease, pest or loss of vigor. So in essence it has changed. Which is why, Joshua pointed out he noticed the crinkly leafs in the off-spring.

So to answer your post, I do believe that a cut can and does lose vigor if it is not taken outside every so often and it is not maintained in a positive growing environment.

We all came from Africa, to what we are to-date as a human species, through environmental change, we have 1000's of subspecies of human beings... if we all start to make union, we will eventually all come back to to the same place.

I make the above statement by my personal experience. My father is Pakistani, my mother is Portuguese. My wife is Greek. My children are all this in varying degrees, and add the first generation Canadian environmental element to the mix.

My paki/port father and mother made me beige. And in the proudest of parental ways, my children are the best of mother, father, my wife's mother and father, and my wife and myself. Indeed true human hybrids...

[EDIT: When the US dropped the A bomb, the Japanese population was plagued with varying degrees of cancer, amongst other things. What the US in ended up doing was creating or aiding in the creation of the Japanese immunization to varying forms of cancer in Japan. The ground contamination, and the carrying of cancer cells from generation to generation, have given Japanese people a better chance to combat cancer cells, which may I add we all carry in varying degrees. Helping them build an immunity to what plagues millions of people every year.

The same is said for women in Africa with regard to HIV. The same is said for Spartans and them giving their children scorpion poison at a young age...

To me it is all relevant.]


CM
 
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I'm going to ignore the insults and other ridiculousness.

But in answering your question about the magic 11th generation, nothing, that was a broad generalization. In my experience, clones do deteriorate and change subtly over a period of years. I had one clone, which I kept for around 6 years, it had deteriorated slightly in that time, for example the leaves had become kind of wavy, but it was still dynamite, up until I lost it, unintentionally, when I had to shut down because of an emergency.

but I have always noticed that the clone seems to get progressively better up until the fourth or fifth generation, and then starts a very gradual deterioration. I have noted that some strains deteriorate more quickly than others. I had a very promising hybrid once that was dynamite for the first three generations, but then it started deteriorating rapidly, and two generations later it was worthless.

I don't specifically know if this is due to "Genetic Drift" but 12 years ago when I was breeding that seemed to be the predominant theory, as to why many strains start to deteriorate after several generations.

That is great that you have a strain that is still stable after 8 years, but surely you have experienced some strains deteriorating after many generations, haven't you? And if you have, what would you ascribe this to, if not "genetic drift".

Hey Josh
I'd like to apologize,,the only thing I was asking from you was proof of genetic drift ,,,I have been beat up by the proponents on this on other discussions and it's a sore subject with me..

I was getting vocal about the theory not you...nothing personal..

And the other comment was not about you either ,,it was about the dipshits at icmag ,like docleaf,,,pushing the proposition that femmed plants degrade and destruct at a certain age....I'm a proponent of femmed breeding so this get's my goat...

Just wanted to apologize for coming off rash or harsh...

You brought a great explanation for your beliefs and why you felt that way and I enjoyed your insight..



I'll let you guys get back to the subject...


Take care...
 
For give me if I am misunderstanding but I thought genetic drift would refer to generation after generation from a male female mating.
If you have a cut that is vigorous and doing well and then over a year or two it loses vigor and then its placed outside (as shanti reccomends) and then its brought back inside and it basically is the same as it started is that Genetic drift?
To me it seems that would be a health type issue or something along those lines and not genetic drift. Are you saying the genes actually change back and forth and eventually end up back the way they were?

Josh I have noticed that crinkly/twisted leaf. I contributed it to stress but I dont know. I did not do any breeding with it so I cant say it was passed along or not.

Genetic drift is a theory that clones gradually deteriorate generation after generation, because they are a copy of a copy of a copy, much the same way as if you make a zerox copy of an essay, if you make a copy of a copy of a copy, eventually you won't be able to read the essay any more.
I have never heard the term genetic drift used in reference to sexual reproduction.

the theory of genetic drift is that it is not environmental, the deterioration happens through gradual genetic mutation due to the process of making a clone of a clone of a clone and so on.
 
Hey Josh
I'd like to apologize,,the only thing I was asking from you was proof of genetic drift ,,,I have been beat up by the proponents on this on other discussions and it's a sore subject with me..

I was getting vocal about the theory not you...nothing personal..

And the other comment was not about you either ,,it was about the dipshits at icmag ,like docleaf,,,pushing the proposition that femmed plants degrade and destruct at a certain age....I'm a proponent of femmed breeding so this get's my goat...

Just wanted to apologize for coming off rash or harsh...

You brought a great explanation for your beliefs and why you felt that way and I enjoyed your insight..



I'll let you guys get back to the subject...


Take care...

Apology accepted. No harm done.

I like your pictures, the buds are beautiful.

And by the way, in my experience true female plants are the most genetically stable. It seems to me that a plant that expresses itself as female, but might put out a male flower here and there(therefore having one or more y chromosomes) are the ones you have to watch out for in terms of eventually degrading and self destructing. I always eradicated any plant that showed so much as a single male flower religiously from my program.

by femming you mean stressing the plant, or using chemicals or hormones trying to see if it will give off male flowers, right?
(if it can't give male flowers then it is a true female ie xxxxx)

Anyway it seems to me if one was worried about a femmed plant self destructing, one would isolate and then fem a clone and then destroy it, keeping the mother that that femmed clone came from. Then there is no chance of the process of femming doing any genetic damage whatsoever, because the original mother never went through that process.
 
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