Organic Janik

Grover Sativa

New member
Hi everyone. I have gone away and thought about my life. Especially my grows but also the rest of me.
I have got my head around organic now and have got a little rotation going on that works for me at last. I have rebuilt my garden as the old one was not good enough.
I have had some amazing results in the greenhouse with the organic ways and my plants are seeming to get better as the soil gets cycled around and more and more mature...
I still use fishy water and organic amendments to re-charge the soil between grows (mainly types of poo!) and compost extracts to keep the organic life boosted to the max. I use different piles with different organic stuff in each depending on what I need. What you put in is what you get out!

Compost is essential and without great healthy working compost piles it won't work.. also myco and tricho and a good organic liquid feed to supplement the amendments, as you don't want to overdo those.

It takes loads of rotations to get your head around but it works for everything, so all my cactuses and veggies and citrus trees and soft fruit. Everything, really.

I am still learning, really but the results are getting such that I can start expressing myself with sativas again and get the desired results...

the only other thing - big pots = big plants, which is great for yields but comes with it's own set of situations... still, I don't like to restrict roots as I find it stresses out my plants (at least with my growing style, anyway...)

Happy growing all!!

This mango is nice and strong. Not a keeper but worth growing. Tasty enough - sickly sort of fruit behind some white pepper kind of thing. Not really POW or BOOM smells but nice. Put it this way - it won't be famed for it's floral traits but it gets me high and it is pleasant to smoke and has much less body than some Mango Haze I have grown in the past...also, it was a faster starter than the others. Also, the tops are still on the plant and the bottoms are dry and curing now (middles in the middle, I suppose!) They are like spades they are so big. They have all the resources of the plant to themselves now.. I will try to get a photo. It is a funny thing to behold and means plenty of smoke for me...always good.

If anybody has a nice mango keeper for me.... ;)



Nice one Grover, welcome back!

Mind sharing your soil mix with us and how you go about growing organic now?

Bed or pot sizes etc. etc.

Would love to compare notes!

I was going to stop pheno hunting because the many small 5gal pots to do so result in a workload that is killing me.
But as humans are wont to do, I am constantly changing my mind and currently thinking I do one more pheno hunt with Mango Haze, SSH, Neville's Haze (and maybe Malawi) before I switch to larger beds (25 gals or so) and reduce my plant count to 10 or so.

If I go that route and find a keeper, I will let you know. Have 30 Mango Haze IBL and ~20 Mango Haze beans. Wouldn't pop them all if I go for a sativa pheno hunt but a good number, maybe 20 or so.


Site Moderator
Staff member
Welcome home Grover! Good to have you back and looking forward to your shares.


Grover Sativa

New member
Thanks guys,

Yeah, I'm not that into pheno hunting, it is, as you say, a lot of work (but I keep a copy of all my females, just in case... then kill them as soon as I know they are not "the one")

There are different ways to go about it but I have found that if you know what you want it is much's when you feel you must grow out everything that you planted when it becomes hard work.

I would plant out ALL the seeds and kill as you go along. Especially with Haze hybrids... for instance I don't want to keep anything that takes forever to start so once I have enough females flowering I can kill all the ones that are still growing like vines. Nothing lost - I can buy more seeds, (or I have thousands in the fridge from experimental crosses and past projects, etc...) so I never regret the ones I cull but I give myself more options. If I want 4 females I prefer to choose 4 from 40 than just having the first 4 that come my way. As for the other 36? I will never know so I don't care...same as if I never planted them.. but my 4 that I kept started fast and were healthy and vigorous or maybe of the pheno I wanted or the smelliest 4 and killed the others once I knew and as my space ran out. I don't "put up" with plants then.

Does that make sense?

Alternatively grow varieties where ALL the plants are nice - just different - as life is best with variety and I don't always feel the need for the strongest weed anyway (- sometimes quite the opposite - weed can be too strong!)

Reading Nevil's thought on Nevil's Haze was very interesting - he knew every pheno possible and how often they appear - he didn't just grow the same cutting again and again. He could recognise what each plant would be fairly early and hone in on the ones he KNEW he wanted to keep...

I would plant them all and as soon as you can smell the stinky ones then keep them and cull the rest. (It is probably easier with NL5/Haze as the best ones are always taller so plant out the whole packet and stick to the stretchy ones as soon as you can see them)

Then move on to another strain and don't have the seeds getting old and stale and unused in the fridge. There are some hot hot hot strains to try nowadays - coming out of North America and Spain - too many to stick to one cutting (unless it is FIRE) and so many great Mexican seeds floating around from old skool strains and building blocks of the past that I can't plant enough of them.

Grover Sativa

New member
Originally, the organic soil was based on a light mix - I don't remember which.
I cut it with a variety of organic amendments (I experimented for ages and came up with some kind of recipe, which I have somewhere and I will dig out for you...)

This was watered with fishy water and left to warm up and just relax for a few days. Then I prepared a really fresh compost extract from a compost which was very very very well rotted and made from mainly kitchen scraps, chicken manure and hay, and fruit from my farm. I used the really good stuff, right in the centre, so that I could get at all of the healthiest and best creatures and get them in the water.. I used rain and fishy water at room temp so as not to shock the little fellas. Once you make the extract you can dilute it down to make as much as you need (within reason - this isn't homeopathy!)

The soil was given a good soaking with this extract (though not enough to come out of the bottom - this isn't salt based fertiliser where you need to flush. Water coming out of the bottom will wash out your good amendments and any organic creatures with it.... keep it in the pot.)

This soil was now left to mature for quite a while (the longer the better but I managed 5 or 6 weeks, I think...) and never left to dry out. In this time the organic life bloomed and ate away a lot of the raw amendments and made them less 'hot' - and made them available for use by the plants and the fungi and bacteria that colonise it's roots... (the Mycho and Tricho!)

I think I may have given it a second drink of compost extract after about 3 or 4 weeks.

This original mix was stronger than I needed it but I used light mix soils to 'cut' it down as needed. For example for cuttings, 1 in 6. For seedling 1 in 4 and potting on mature plants 1 in 2. I called it "Mother of Organic Soil" as opposed to organic soil. You need to work out how strong your plants can take it at various levels but if you leave it to mature long enough I found that nothing really found it too much, even really delicate plants at 1 in 2... I think it is the bat guano that can be hot but once the organics get to it they sort of cool it down and make it friendlier (or something)

Once recycling the compost comes around the amendments are different depending on what you intend to grow in it the next time around and what you grew in it the last time and also on judgement because you can sort of tell if the last plant used up all of the Nitrogen (for example) and then add more worm castings, which are high in nitrogen or perhaps use an extract from a pile which was made with lots of grass or coffee grounds as these create a higher nitrogen compost. I use spent grain from the brewing process and grass in my nitrogen pile as this is both high in nitrogen and also high in sugars and other carbons that those organic micro-life guys really need to keep healthy and will give you sweeter flowers, too. Oak leaves are awesome for a good nitrogen pile - layers are better than a big lump...

Also, it depend on what organic amendments you have available to you. Different parts of the world have different amendments easily available.

After a couple of indoor grows, my soil got taken outside and used in the greenhouse. This meant I could go crazy with mulch. Compost mulches are a must for outdoor, organic plants. They just have so so many different benefits and if the plant is organic and long term then it doesn't care about bugs as it is strong and shrugs them off and the soil is robust and not easily infected at all. You have, in essence, innoculated it already. Bug infestations are bad but non-organic plants can suffer when mulched as bugs can like that warm and moist environment under the mulch and the plants and soil are not as robust. Whereas our organic plants do not suffer like this.

If you are brave and your plant is really strong and has a big old stem then you can even mulch with some well rotted manure as well as compost.

That greenhouse crop was stunning. Bubblegum. All strawberry flavours and resin and a huge yield. very strong and the biggest plant took me 3 months to smoke (including hashish)

Always keep chlorine and salts away from your soil. They harm the organic life. All chemicals are just no no here. Rainwater or water treated for chlorine. You can use RO but I would definitely put some life back in. Maybe mix in with some run-off waste - it may not have been through the RO filter but it has been through the pre-filter and should be free or chlorine but still have some life to it... I try to use water from my fish tanks when I can - it is chlorine and chemical free and contains small amounts of fish waste, billions of bacteria (dead and alive) and both nitrates and nitrites... all of these will be food and drink for your organic life. Rain water contains dead leaves and bits of insect and all the other things it picks up in the drain and pipes and butt - which will also feed your soil - but it also contains Legionnaires Disease (4 in 5 butts) - which is shit and can actually kill you if you turn it into an aerosol and breathe it in.... and is a breeding ground for mozzies - which are horrible. I don't like water butts for these reasons.

After quite a few cycles then some minerals can be added as these will slowly get depleted.... different places have different rocks to add...volcanic or from the sea or whatever you fancy...

There is plenty to explore and learn on the net and it is about experimenting and speaking to old heads and gardeners and getting your hands dirty experiencing! Think big as 2 tomatoes and a cups worth of coffee grounds won't cut it for anybody who wants to start a compost pile!

If I need more soil I can get a pot of the organic soil and add some light mix to it, even 2 or 3 to 1... then add amendments and enrich with a good compost extract and let it mature a while.... You have added to your organic soil resource. Never throw it away unless something bad happens, like infection or infestation. I have not had this experience yet - I even brought my outdoor compost back indoors after the Fall, once my plants were harvested and never had any problems. It is gold to me now and I save a lot of money on buying bags of soil. The yields and flavours are great. Best of all it is very hard to over feed anything as the plants feed themselves, really, so you can grow whatever you desire - even the fussiest hazes and tropical sativas or robust indicas and anything in between.

If you finish with cannabis then use the organic soil in a raised bed or your garden for the best flowers and veggies you have ever tasted or seen.

re use, re use, re use. Don't waste. With everything.
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Joe King Park

Active member
Hi Grover, and welcome back. I just got back myself. And I must say it's been too long. After four years of being under the microscope I can once again come out to play. Had to take out a budgeting loan to buy a XL kit I'm halfway there. Can't wait to try some new Nice though and get with the programme lol 😂. Joe

Grover Sativa

New member
I found my notebook. It is a bit scribbly but I knew what I was thinking at the time, I'm sure...

It had per 50litres of light mix (Plagron, apparently)

25 measures of Worm Castings
4 measures of Fish/Blood/Bone
4 measures of Bat Guano

and a drench containing:

3 ml Bio Silicon
4 ml Boost (Humic Acid ++)
5ml Catalyst Seaweed Extract
6ml Yukka Extract (Bio Wetting Agent)
50g S13 Bacterial Innoculent
1/2 bucket compost extract

then the tubs that went outside were cut with 20%pure compost and amended chicken manure pellets and Lays Organic Plant Based Fertiliser Pellets (because I had them from my farm..) and (eventually) mulched with a mix of compost and a little well rotted horse manure.

It was all left to mature then cut down (diluted) as I felt comfortable. my experience showed I was a little bit of a pussy but it is better to use too little in the soil and feed with organic fertilisers by hand, anyway - more control - which is what we all want, I think...

After a couple of weeks another drench of compost extract was applied

Every water had a little Organic Grow fertiliser and Organic Boost (with Humic Acid) and wetting agents.

I hope this helps a little

You must use whatever is available to you... Don't be scared to add too much of anything - the soil can always be diluted with light mix and/or left to further mature!
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Grover Sativa

New member
Quick Update : This plant has got a great sativa high. Strong, even though it is barely cured.. with some eyes but generally high and at the moment a tough of electricity.

The other plant (I kept 2 females that I liked from half a pack) is NL5/Haze leaning whereas this one was very much a Skunk/Haze type plant in look and smell and smoke.

The NL5/Haze pheno has a wonderful smell and a real twinkle to its buds - it looks and smells very nice indeed. The yield is fantastic. It is still flowering, though. It went in about 2 weeks after the other one but it has been going for ages. It must be on 14 weeks by now at least.

Mango Haze has the finish but it doesn't have the quick start - it takes a fucking age to get going. In that time you have grown a jungle. You need serious pruning skills to grow these big ones indoors. Maybe plant out the whole pack and hone in on the quickest and most compact ones straight away for indoor selection. Outdoors is different, I suppose it's more of a grower's tilt. I reckon they all get you very high but it is about what works for you - in your garden and with your style and of course to your flava.

Even though the weed is really nice it is horrible to go through that indoors! You will see what I mean if I post a picture of this NL5/Haze leaning girl. She is just starting to mature so starting to look real nice but there is so much of her it is ridiculous.

I once found a blatant little NL5 phenotype plant in a packet of mango haze. I did a grow journal so there may be pictures somewhere... Short and squat and nothing like any other Mango plant I have come across since. I really wish I kept her now. I found Grover's Cut * in the same pack so didn't keep the little one but I didn't realise quite what I had... oh well.

shit me - I really am quite high!

Take Care All (I'm off to stare and dribble in a corner somewhere!)


* that is a lesson in not allowing the 'perfect' to be the enemy of the 'very good indeed' I should have kept both.
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Grover Sativa

New member
I finally took down the last reflowerings of the nl/haze pheno yesterday.
I am not sure how long this plant flowered for but I think it was roughly forever. Infinity weeks! I can't remember a time in my life when this plant wasn't flowering!

The other one is all gone now, more or less... snaffled away. It was nice smoke. A good sativa high and nice sativa flavour but too mild - maybe a cure would improve things slightly but not too much.

These last two are just yield tropical sativas, really. Same as any outdoor sativa I may grow in a hot climate or greenhouse but it is not really for indoors, if you can help it.

I understand that when Silver haze and NL5/haze came out there was no sativa to be grown indoors and they were important.

I understand that Super silver and mango Hazes are attempts at making those indoor sativas yield commercially - and it worked... but these days you can do better than growing sativas like this indoors.

I would go for a mango hybrid if you really want to smoke the mango - although the high is nice. The skunk/haze pheno had a good rush and no real ceiling - 2 joints got you twice as high. This reminds me why I got rid of Grover's Cut of the Mango Haze - it was too strong on the indica side and so you couldn't enjoy the sativa high - 2 joints and you were going to bed. 3 was devastation. You could only ever have 1 joint and enjoy the high - even though you wanted another!! The buds were much better quality, though - resin and flavour and aroma and look and feel. Indica vs Sativas, I suppose...

I like the high from these ones more but the final product is a bit "outdoor weed but indoors" and not like the bag appeal stuff you can grow - typical trade off.

Mango is fine as long as you know what you are getting into.

I remember it being more of an indica in the old days but I have only had super stretchy sativas from so many Mango seeds now I am starting to think that this is all there is now.

Worth a grow if you live in a sunny place - it is an extremely high yielding tropical sativa. The tastes are nice but very mild compared too other strains. It really is about having a good high without sacrificing yield... If you grow enough you will find what you want but these days I hate the slog.

Haze hybrids are often that way... I have some cheese / haze hybrids in at the moment and the smells are amazing - and the resin and look but the buds are absolutely tiny. Pathetic,really. You have to search for a good haze that works for you! There is plenty else around if you can't be bothered with the hassle and wasted space.

Plant 1 was nice but tasted mild and the final product was unrefined

Plant 2 could be fucking rocket fuel for all I care - you can't have a plant take more that 17 weeks to finish. As it happens, from testing the popcorn, the high is fantastic and clear and strong but the taste is extremely mild again. Amazing yield, though - amazing.

Alas, poor Mango - I knew him well.. He is in my past now but no regrets on these final 2.

Adios, Chow and Yasou - your time has come and gone - you are yesterday's bud.

Thanks for the generally good memories... I'll enjoy these last 12 to 14 oz when I need something less 'IN MY FACE' than the kushy or skunky vibe...
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Grover Sativa

New member
Agreed - definitely a better choice, I think. Apparently the line produces a more indica style of plants.

I got given the seeds, though - I haven't bought MNS seeds for a while now.... I get given a fair few seeds (for testing new F1s and potential strains, etc...) there are a lot of seeds in the world!! They are easy to make... Don't pay too much if you can help it (that is why the price for SSH and MH upsets me a little. I have had my say on it in the past.)
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Grover Sativa

New member
That long flowering Mango Haze is well cured now. I am in a position to give you a smoke report.

Was it worth it in the end?

well....sort of ... but no not really!

In one way, I got shed loads of serviceable weed. Which is popular because it is cheap.

It is very strong. Typical Mango Haze, really. Nice high in the beginning but hard to really enjoy because of the strong mong-out indica effect at the end.

But it doesn't get me anywhere near as high as the Sour Diesel - which took half the time and the taste is incomparable really. Sour tastes absolutely lovely but this stuff just tastes rubbish.

I know I could have grown it better - more stable temps would have helped - and stronger lights (I use 600w, not 1000w lights) but my setup is as good as most, to be fair and most won't do any better.

But the taste. My God it is just horrible. It is haze but in all of the worst places. No sweetness at all. No joy.
TBH, it is just as I expected - I don't know how many Mango Hazes I have grown in a row without finding anything decent at all. It is time to move on. There is better stuff out there these days. Strawberry Surprise (from the Emerald Triangle in N.Cali) smashes this, as does GG4, zkittlez and some of the Sour Diesel hybrids... I could go on.

It is just the flavour. It is so bad. I am not sure I can think of an excuse for this kind of thing. I grew this with a few Cheese/Haze plants and although they were a bit variable, every Cheese/Haze tasted nice, in different ways. I can't see the point in this strain at all. Sorry. Just being honest.

Flowering Time - a fucking lifetime. don't go there.
Ease of Growth - 3/10
Yield - 9/10
Medical Quality - 7/10
Flower Quality - 4/10
Aroma/Flava - 2/10

Just don't bother.
What makes me laugh is how people on this site tie themselves up in knots over whether the haze in this or that is Haze A or C or what ratio of either or how or where from.... or how you can have a Haze A/C when they are both males and 1 is supposed to be dead anyway! Shanti never makes it clear... but honestly?

who cares when the plants are this bad?

Why are you even buying 30 year old strains anyway? There is so much work being done improving tastes and aromas and highs and flower quality. Don't get stuck in the past.

First there was the disaster of the Early Skunk/Haze then the demise of the MasterKaze then the shambles of half of the Black Widows (just disgusting - I never grew such bad tasting weed) - now this.

I love this site and the people on this site are great. I love contributing (though whether it is appreciated I don't really know..) but the seeds... oh God those awful seeds full of meh highs (admit it - you know you have grown so many meh plants) and terrible tastes.

The thing is that I just don't like MNS stuff. For the life of me, I can't get any decent plants out of it compared to...well, almost anything else I plant, really (sorry Shantster.)
I used to get winners in every pack I planted but then the meh started and I just struggle now. To be honest, the only MNS seeds I have planted in years have all been given to me but I actually refuse to accept them now. It is embarrassing.

I think it is actually very sad. Maybe I have been like astronomically unlucky with them (maybe.....!)

I love the Shanster - I really do. I just think he takes the piss with his seeds. He needs to work on them not just leave things like this. Old strains ALWAYS get tired. I struggle with Kali Mist and Orange Bud now, too and I always used to get great plants from those seeds. You can't keep using the same mothers and fathers decade after decade. Things decline slowly but surely until you are left with ordinary plants and nothing else. A seed company should either work its lines every year - always improving the Mothers and Fathers or bring in new fresh genetics, new lines - to keep improving things and not letting them get stale. I know Shanti spends all his time on the CBD stuff and good on him, medicinal is great, but he should do something else with the recreational stuff then. Put somebody else in charge - there are so many great breeders out there these days. Or sell up.

As a grower, when you are searching and searching for something nice and all you find is ordinary, at best not bad... you just gotta give up in the end. You are wasting money and time.

The theory that it is Okay to have 8 shit plants from 9 females as long as that 9th is a killer is just a lie propagated to sell you shit seeds. I have planted so many lines where I have had 6, 7 or more good females from 9 and still there are killers in there. You don't need to put up with shit plants in order to find great ones. It is just not true. One of the descriptions from a MNS strain is something like "finding a keeper will be like finding a diamond in the rough - are you up for the search?" That makes me laugh my head off. That just means "most of the plants in this pack will be shit" I have avoided that line like the plague. There is just no excuse for that however nice that plant might be when you finally find it (you never will.) And if you do? How much will it have cost you to have that plant? Not just in the cost of seeds (which are scandalously overpriced. Here and elsewhere.) but in lost weed. Every shit plant is a wasted opportunity for ounces of A-grade at the end of the day.
It doesn't make me angry as I generally avoid this stuff nowadays (just angry with myself for not learning my lessons time and time and time and time again!!!) but I do think that there is just no excuse for this.

I can't recommend that anybody grows this strain from MY OWN experiences of it over the last few years. Strong but the flavour is so bad.
It puts the Hay into Haze !!

(When you all come back and tell me how you have found great plants in your packs I will say "well done. You had much much much better luck than I. Maybe I am just not a very good grower - but I am as good as most. Now be honest - how much hay did you have to wade through to find it? Honestly?")

I'm gonna keep posting greenhouse grows and photos here but they just won't be of MNS seeds. I have so much I could use but hold back because it is not MrNice (like the Strawberry Surprise x Gift of Fire F1s from California. Amazing aromas and amazing plants...just nothing like this shit.)

If that is a problem just let me know and I'll see y'all on UK420 or somewhere else instead...


Well-known member
Thanks for the report, GS. I'm not surprised by your comments; you are consistent.

I haven't grown Mango Haze yet, and I would probably run the MH inbred line before regular MH. Your experience is not too far off of mine with Angel's Breathe (MH x AH); I only got one female and one male out of 10 seeds that I liked. But that girl was, I think, very much like her MH mother and is some of the finest tasting herb I've ever smoked. I agree with you that the effect was too Indica influenced for me. But I found magic in the F2s made from that mother and father. That plant was by far the best tasting weed I've smoked and the effect was very intense and long lived.

Good luck with your future grows.

Recolin Julien

New member
Thanks guys,

Yeah, I'm not that into pheno hunting, it is, as you say, a lot of work (but I keep a copy of all my females, just in case... then kill them as soon as I know they are not "the one")

There are different ways to go about it but I have found that if you know what you want it is much's when you feel you must grow out everything that you planted when it becomes hard work.

I would plant out ALL the seeds and kill as you go along. Especially with Haze hybrids... for instance I don't want to keep anything that takes forever to start so once I have enough females flowering I can kill all the ones that are still growing like vines. Nothing lost - I can buy more seeds, (or I have thousands in the fridge from experimental crosses and past projects, etc...) so I never regret the ones I cull but I give myself more options. If I want 4 females I prefer to choose 4 from 40 than just having the first 4 that come my way. As for the other 36? I will never know so I don't care...same as if I never planted them.. but my 4 that I kept started fast and were healthy and vigorous or maybe of the pheno I wanted or the smelliest 4 and killed the others once I knew and as my space ran out. I don't "put up" with plants then.

Cela a-t-il du sens?

Alternativement, cultivez des variétés où TOUTES les plantes sont belles - juste différentes - car la vie est meilleure avec la variété et je ne ressens pas toujours le besoin de la mauvaise herbe la plus forte de toute façon (- parfois tout le contraire - la mauvaise herbe peut être trop forte!)

Lire la pensée de Nevil sur Nevil's Haze était très intéressante - il connaissait tous les phénotypes possibles et à quelle fréquence ils apparaissaient - il ne faisait pas simplement pousser la même bouture encore et encore. Il pouvait reconnaître ce que chaque plante serait assez tôt et se concentrer sur celles qu'il savait qu'il voulait garder ...

Je les planterais tous et dès que vous pourrez sentir les puants, gardez-les et éliminez le reste. (C'est probablement plus facile avec NL5 / Haze car les meilleurs sont toujours plus grands, donc plantez tout le paquet et tenez-vous-en à ceux qui sont extensibles dès que vous pouvez les voir)

Ensuite, passez à une autre variété et ne laissez pas les graines vieillir, périmées et inutilisées dans le réfrigérateur. Il y a des variétés chaudes et chaudes à essayer de nos jours - venant d'Amérique du Nord et d'Espagne - trop pour s'en tenir à une seule bouture (à moins que ce ne soit FIRE) et tant de bonnes graines mexicaines flottant à partir de vieilles variétés de skool et de blocs de construction du passé que je ne peux pas en planter assez.

Tres elle analyse!
Je cherche toujours et trouve toujours beaucoup de plaisir à découvrir les nouveaux phéno qu'une variété ou un croisement offre.
MNS est ma référence!
Bien que la critique de 2003 n'a rien à voir avec celle d'aujourd'hui. J'espère que c'est pas pareil pour toutes les autres black Widow, SSh, Mango Widoo ...
Ce sont différentes lignée ou les mêmes originaux que les shanti utilisent.
si par la force des ccoses il a du recommencer je lui en voudrais pas . Je veux juste savoir pourquoi ce n'est plus la même chose . Par exemple la critical mass !