Mark grows some MNS Nev's crosses

Marcus_in_the_Darkus

Well-known member
Hello MNS Brethren! I'm going to flower 6 Grail Widow and 3 Neville's Haze Mango plants in this grow log. I'm posting this thread in the Neville's Haze forum even though I'm not growing NH, but crosses of NH. My reasoning is that, as much as I want to (and eventually will) grow NH, Shanti has already selected some fine NH moms that he used in crosses such as Neville's Haze Mango, Neville's Skunk, and Grail Widow. From what I've read, maybe 5% of NH plants are keepers, and because I can run only about 10 plants at a time, I think I'll have a better chance of finding something special in the NH crosses. Also, there's no forum for Grail Widow and the GW grow threads are spread out all over the place, so this one goes here.

I've been particularly intrigued by some of the Grail Widow grow reports, so I picked up a straw of GW direct from MNS. The straw contained 16 seeds, so I popped 8 of them on 16 November 2017, but only 6 germed for a 75% germination rate. Because I had room for more than 6 plants, I popped three Neville's Haze Mango seeds, and they all came up. The 9 plants have been vegging under LED shop lights for about 6-7 weeks now. I topped them at about 6 weeks and was unsuccessful in getting the cuts to root. I still suck at getting clones to root. I gave up on my bubble cloner and began using a propagation dome, thermostat-controlled heat mat and rapid rooters, but I screwed up and let standing water saturate the Rapid Rooters, so the stems rotted before they rooted. Because my Angel's Breathe grow is nearly complete and the flower tent will be available shortly, I decided that rather than waiting to flower clones, I'm going to mainline the seed plants, taking as many cuts as I can, transplant and veg them for about a week and then flower them. I expect these NH crosses to stretch a lot but I think I can keep things under control if I mainline for 4 colas per plant.

This will be my fourth grow, and my second MNS grow. I'm flowering with a 12-12 cycle in a 4' x 4' tent under 600W of COBs, and flashing a 12W 730 µm far red for 5 minutes before and 15 minutes after lights out. Plants will be in 4-gal hempy buckets in coco coir.

So I have some work to do in the garden this weekend and will snap a few pics of the grow as I get the plants ready to flower. Stay tuned.
 

beauthebulldog

New member
Hi Marcus.
Great to see you growing these plants. Hope it goes well for you!
Hope I'm not being condescending, but I'm wondering if some of your cloning troubles may be due to using the main stem, as these can be tricky to root, with their thin walls and soft tissues, and can be very prone to rot.
A lower stem, cut close to the main stem (not always easy with long stems), would be a bit more tough and woody, and may root more easily.
And yes, they will stretch a lot. A pain in the arse until you can select/tie down, or flower small clones, so yes, good luck!
 

59lespaul

Member
I also like to cut longer than I'm going to initially use, and then do my final cut, with the stem underwater, so no air bubbles get in. Watch out for giving to much light, as that can make them want to grow, vs developing roots, and they will dehydrate trying to grow, with no roots.

Also don't let the mat/roots ect get to warm, as it can cause fungus/infection. I like the root zone to be 74-77 degrees. 75 being what I strive for.

I also like rooting gel, but can also do just as well without it.

I also would use the woodiest parts that I can. I'll often just cut off whole branches, and cut them ( clones ) at each node.
 

wwwwww

Member
Loved the angels breathe thread. Remember though, wait a bit before you trash a plant. They change throughout flower, and it is the final product that really matters. That’s the only change I’d like to see in this new grow. Anyway, best of luck to you with this grow mark. Hope you find your holy grail plant.
 

Marcus_in_the_Darkus

Well-known member
Thanks for the feedback, advice and encouragement, folks. I think I've solved my cloning woes as I've gotten 3 clones to root now that I desaturated the Rapid Rooters, and I cut a bunch more the other day when I mainlined the seed plants.




Here's GW1, GW2 and GW3 (l-r). GW1 gave me a nice surprise when a stem bub returned not only nice smells, but sticky fingertips. A look through the loupe shows good proto-trichome coverage, always a good sign in veg. I'm keeping my eye on this one.




Left to right, GW6, GW7 and GW8.




These are the Nev's Haze Mango plants, NHM1, NHM2 and NHM3 (l-r). In the local dialect, NHM1 is a "monstah!"




Here's a summary. Heights taken after I topped the plants the second time for 4 colas.

 
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bb247

Member
Great growlogging MarcusintheDarkus. I wish I could keep track like that but I think I'm running too many :p

Jam on
 

Marcus_in_the_Darkus

Well-known member
I let the trained and manifolded seed plants veg in my veg cabinet for a couple days while I cleaned out the grow pots, replaced the coco media, etc. Then I transplanted the seed plants and two rooted clones to 4-gallon hempy buckets, using mycorrhizae to give the roots a little boost. Because I have seen early trichomes on GW1, and because I got a rooted clone of that plant, I decided to add a clone of GW1 to the grow. Also a clone of GW7. Other cuttings are still rooting.

I may have seriously stressed out NHM1, the monstah, by taking too much growth off when I topped the plant for 4 colas. I probably took too much off all the plants, as some of them are now looking really scrawny when they were nice and bushy before. I moved the plants into the flower tent where I will veg them for a week to 10 days under 600W of COBs before flipping to 12/12. Hopefully they'll look a bit greener and bushier when I post my next pic at the flip.

Back row (l-r): NHM1, NHM2, NHM3, GW3
Middle row (l-r): GW1 clone, GW1, GW2, GW6
Front row (l-r): GW7 clone, GW7, GW8


I'm a little worried about how big GW1 and NHM are, and how far they'll stretch. If I get a lot of females it's going to be crazy in the tent.
 

Marcus_in_the_Darkus

Well-known member
Ready for the flip

The plants have made good progress vegging under 600W of COBs on an 18/6 schedule for the last week. They're getting a 650 ppm solution of GH 6/9/2 ml/gal micro/grow/calimag, and will for the next few weeks. I'm going to flip them to 12/12 tomorrow. No preflowers (surprising, given their age) but GW1 looks like a girl which would be great because I've still got my eye on this plant. Great smell in veg, sticky stalk and petioles, and more developed trichomes.

Let the show begin!

Back row (l-r): NHM1, NHM2, NHM3, GW1
Middle row: GW1 clone, GW2, GW3, GW6
Front row: GW7 clone, GW7, GW8

 

Marcus_in_the_Darkus

Well-known member
At F12 the clones are stretching like crazy (over 5x so far!!), but the mainlined seed plants are very much under control, as they are all between 20" and 26" tall. The three NHM plants gave me 1 male and 2 females. Of the six GW plants, I have 3 females, 2 males, while GW8 stubbornly refuses to show sex. So I'll have 6 or 7 girls to flower out, and it will be a crowded tent, but manageable. The tent smells nice when I open it up, but not overwhelming. Getting nice limey haze smells, with the NHMs definitely sweeter while the GWs have a bit more funk and character at this stage. I got a bit of an onion smell from GW3, which was interesting.

I'm going to keep a careful eye on the males over the next 10 days or so and keep them in the tent as long as I dare before they start shooting pollen, then I'll move them into a room with a south-facing window and collect pollen, which will be used to make F2s and also frozen. I'll be keeping a careful eye on them and test smoke the tops. I may top the GW1 male clone now, try to root the cuttings (as I don't have any rooted clones of this plant), and try to squeeze him into the 2-ft-tall flowering chamber for randy males.

Here's an executive summary. I'll post some pics over the weekend.


 
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thefoetus

New member
Nice thread, Marcus! Love the detailed spreadsheet. Will be following along, as we have a some Nev Mango and some Widow Grail on the way. I'm not sure whether 'Widow Grail' differs from 'Grail Widow' or if its the same seed?

We were new to cloning, until recently, and had similar results with our first couple of attempts. We're definitely still working on our method; 59lespaul & beauthebulldog seem to make useful suggestions above.

Good luck with the grow!

Foetus
 

wwwwww

Member
Widow grail and grail widow are one and the same. Also a PSA to all: the buy now price of grail widow is 50, and I see it on the auction site now for over 80. Please get a sheet of the buy now prices from Simone so you don’t overspend. If the strain is not on there ask about it specifically.
 

Marcus_in_the_Darkus

Well-known member
@thefoetus, thanks, and glad to see you are interested in these two stains as well. You did a great job with your Nl5Hz selection run and I'd love to see what these NH crosses do with a larger population from which to select. I sure as hell hope the Grail Widow lineage is the same as was reported from the testers, but I understand why there is some uncertainty because the strain description title says "Widow x Haze (Holy Grail)," which implies a female widow crossed with a male haze, which is opposite of what the actual description says...

This has been a long time coming! Finally the Grail has been made available, but as limited edition only. The Grail combines the strong particular spicy/earthy aromas of Haze with the fruity oniony aromas of the Widow family. This particular Haze female has dominated genetics top shelf strains since modern times and combining it with the original Widow male, makes for a mouthwatering experience and a mind blowing journey into a body high with a mind of clarity.
This plant is not so difficult to get right but it definitely needs love and attention if you wish to get the Holy Grail of Stashesthere will be a need to cure the dried flower for 6 weeks to 3 months prior to smoking it you will understand!
@wwwwww, 80€...Yikes! Thanks for the heads up on the cost of this strain. Are you still thinking about NH outdoors this year here in New England?

I took some pics last night which I will post when I get away from this damned iPad.
 

Marcus_in_the_Darkus

Well-known member
GW1 seed plant and clone at F13. Definitely the most interesting plant in veg with early trichomes, sticky stem rub and nice sweet&sour fragrance. Turned out to be a male, which is kind of a bummer. Worse, I flowered the only clone I got, several other cuts failed to root, so I'm going to grab some more cuts today at F14 and tray again, this time using peat pucks instead of rapid rooters in my prop dome.



GW2, female, at F13.



GW3, female, at F13. This seedling was the runt of the litter. Faint onion smells. I was unable to get a cutting from this plant to root, so I may try a couple more cuts tonight.



GW6, male, at F13. Limey haze smell. Cuttings rooted easily.



GW7, female, seed plant and clone at F13. Cuttings rooted easily and have grown vigorously.



GW8, sex unknown as of F13.



NHM1, male, at F13. Very vigorous in veg, nearly killed it when I topped it for 4 colas. Way too big to fit in my veg chamber.



NHM2, female, at F13.



NHM3, female, at F13. This plant was also a runt seedling and tiny after topped the second time, so I gave it and GW3 a one-week head start by transplanting them early to 4-gal hempy buckets. She responded beautifully, and is among the more vigorous plants.
 

wwwwww

Member
I believe GW is shanti’s highly selected nevs haze female (probably haze A dom) x his widow f1 male that is well proven. The reports of this line from the testers has me really excited.

I have decided to not grow Nevs haze OD this year. However, I may be getting some vintage MNS SSH and Mango haze from 2005 to reproduce from another forums member. I think doing those outdoor will be a huge help to the strength of the lines, and I have the perfect spots picked out for the two strains. The idea is to keep them alive at all costs, and make them have seeds that are ready for any climate. Can’t wait to get some great terps too.


Good read stolen from the newest inbreeding thread in breeding section:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/tpj.12492/full
 
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thefoetus

New member
Also a PSA to all: the buy now price of grail widow is 50, and I see it on the auction site now for over 80. Please get a sheet of the buy now prices from Simone so you don’t overspend.
Thanks for the tip!

@thefoetus, thanks, and glad to see you are interested in these two stains as well. You did a great job with your Nl5Hz selection run and I'd love to see what these NH crosses do with a larger population from which to select. I sure as hell hope the Grail Widow lineage is the same as was reported from the testers, but I understand why there is some uncertainty because the strain description title says "Widow x Haze (Holy Grail)," which implies a female widow crossed with a male haze, which is opposite of what the actual description says...
Thanks Marcus! Yes we were keen to select from a good enough sized pool. Nevil wrote that he worked with batches of 40-50 which inspired me - 2 packs of MNS is about 40 seeds. We will also be selecting the Nev Mango out of 40 seeds.

Nevil said:
Most of the work I did was with batches of 40-50 seeds at a time.
The variety I grew the most of was NL5xHzC. No.1 came out in the first batch of about 20 females. Over the years I've grown many 1000s. In most respects, it was still the best. No.122, the one Shanti dubbed the Mango, came after years of searching, a tireless quest on my part. Aspiring growers often came to me and I regularly made them start with 5Hz seed. There are a few cuts around from those exploits, but they weren't as good as 1 and 122. But almost. As I said before, there's not a sea of difference between the best out of 50 and the best out of 1000. But there is a difference for the most discerning.
N.
 

Marcus_in_the_Darkus

Well-known member
@thefoetus, bear in mind while ordering Grail Widow that you probably won't get the usual 20 seeds per straw; I got 16 in mine, along with a 75% germination rate.
 

Marcus_in_the_Darkus

Well-known member
That nhm1 male looks like a beast ! I hope you kept a cut
Hello kief420. Yes, I have a clone of NHM1 in my veg cabinet.

I am now keeping a careful watch on the males, which have been separated from the females, with an eye towards selecting males from which to make F2s. I've liked GW1 from early on due to stickiness of stem rubs in veg and a nice odor. NHM1 is interesting due to its vigor. Not much noteworthy (to me, anyway, from GW6. So I decided to use my cheap USB microscope to take some pics of flowers from the 3 male plants at F22 to compare resin development.

GW1 at F22



GW6 at F22



NHM1 at F22


I would say at this point GW1 leads the pack in resin development, although none of them are what I would consider very resinous at the moment. How much of this is due to longer-vs-shorter flowering time and how much of it is due to better genetics?

Interestingly, the very vigorous NHM1 is running a distant third in the resin production race, from what I can tell.
 

Marcus_in_the_Darkus

Well-known member
This is interesting. The male NHM1 just went intersex on me. Same as my last grow, only this guy wasn't stressed as much, IMO. No he's a she. Or something like that. If I was in Canada, I'd be required, under force of law, to use politically correct pronouns here. :p




So why should I keep an intersex plant again? Doesn't seem too rare of an occurrence to me.
 
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