Lets get taboo! The fem question.

[Mr. Brown]

Hi All

Thought to answer a few things directly since reading this thread.
I think most of you may not remember but a company called Dinafem set up initially by feminizing Mr Nice regular strains. They became the largest seller of seeds in the world before being raided a few years back due to exporting without correct phytosanitary certificates and other such breaches, to the point they were closed and a huge amount of money and properties were sequestered by the Spanish authorities. They approached me to tell me this when the started and offered me royalties of which I denied and asked them only to write correct information in their catelogue so their growers would understand what they are really growing. To their credit they did do this in their intial catalogue and we remained friendly to the point when I created CBD crew project they joined and we initially made all their CBD seeds with us...so this is a true account of things from my side and one that many in the industry are well aware of.
So what are some reasons for not doing the Mrs Nice range of seed?
Firstly what I work on is really up to me from the start with a multitude of requests the last XX years it is important that I am happy with what I am doing so I do it well. While I understand many or most seed companies went forward on this strategy of no longer keeping males and just feminizing selected mothers, I still believe this occurrence in nature is the exception and not the norm, and I take my cues from Mother Nature not Man in these matters.
Secondly I keep open an ever growing option to hobby breeders or regular seed growers to select something special since 15% is towards the mother, 70% similar and 15% towards the father in a stable regular seed strain sold at MNS.
Thirdly if people wish to use female seeds from a select mother then why not make them yourself? It brings costs down and allows the normal person to produce a large amount of seed that they made and controlled, with a possibility for them to redo this. Breeding with males and females is a completely different set of rules and not everyone is versed in selecting a good male and testing progeny seed....so in reality making female seed is now not so difficult for the grower and therefore it is not out of the good growers realm of work any longer. Possibly the job is done better in house rather than by commercial seed producers who sell to seed companies who put names to things but no real origins are truly known in reality.
Fourthly using intersexed plants is really only useful if a male does not exist, and it can have a tendency to manifest intersexed plants depending upon the strain...and for years I spent most my breeding life reducing this possibility so it really does go against mainstream selective breeding principles which I still abide by as a general rule.
Lastly the concept of a good average is wonderful for many people, especially commercial producers, but it is not why I breed or grow. I am still always looking for that special plant to keep as a mother for consistency over time and to add new strains to an already well selected list of plants that exist. I have seen great female seed plants do not get me wrong, but in general they make good average flowers and it is not so enticing for me in the end. I also do not say everything in regular seeds will always be great, but finding something special and that is worthy to go on with, well I find this with regular seeds...not by manipulating chromosomes with chemicals.

I expect it may be construed I am a strong believer in plants being male or female, not anything else, and this is correct, I do. So while I do understand their is an application for all types of seeds , I chose to remain old school and a little old fashion in breeding after trying the most cutting edge technics possible. It is simply my own choice after decades of doing this business.
So please just see this as my response without getting into criticism of what others do. Hope that gives some insight into the why, where, who how questions that inevitably follow. All the best Sb

Thanks a lot for what you are doing

And thanks for the opportunity you give us through your work

 

[PtreeCi]

For all interested to make some fem seed (I was too, of course I was)

1. You need selected female plant as pollen donor, selected female plant as seed mother.
Or even more selected plants for cross pollinations - neverending choices, where you are the god who choose traits you like, and actually know the parents !
2. Make clone from plant you would like to get female pollen, make it rooted, start flowering her and from then spray it with colloid silver each day.
( I have used cosmetics colloid silver at 40ppm ) after about 2-3 weeks the plant looked like it will die in few seconds, yet it developed male sacks, which started to fill by pollen - as male plant should do )
3. Collect pollen a and aplly on flowering plant you would like feminized seeds from.

Whoala ! ! ! And now, you have made tens to hunderds of fem seeds yourself, again, knowing what you have actually made, totally free ! ! !

Thanks a lot for what you are doing

And thanks for the opportunity you give us through your work

subsribing under this :_)

 

[Throwback]

Mrs Nice, thats hilarious.

 

[Nightmare.]

Here’s a thought
How about we have both?

Imagine a green house full of regular seedlings and half are males…
But hey we have fem back ups to replace the males and No Down Time!
Just a thought, especially when the fems are yielding upwards of 30%+ on a couple varieties.
That’s why.
MNS where everyone can be a champion growing legends. No shit!
Thank you SB
And Happy Birthday Buddy!
✌

You might find something more potent when selfed as you are selecting a potent plant and then increasing that trait by selfing. But you will sacrifice in other areas which for example could be resistances to viruses and pests and a decline in vigor. A good example of this is the cookies clone. They repeatedly selfed and reversed plants pushing and selecting for nothing but their idea of potency. In the end they ended up with clone a mutated mess that has no vigour and takes months of veg to get to a decent size. The same can be done for a nother trait such as a colour but when selfing there will be problems else were. Selfing is probably best used by breeders to may be back up a clone in fem seed form. Were if for some reason the original clone is lost your able to select for similar wich then can be used with the normal male to make the set and very similar seed.

 

[Nightmare.]

The main concerns with feminised seed people had like shanti baba who was trying to educate people about the issues and people not using them responsibly when these plants and seeds are out in the public. There are alot of feminised genetics out there now that have not been tested properly before being reversed. An on top of that we have seen more breeders along with hobbyist reversing plant on top of plant regardless of how some of those plants behave or the problems they have. Now as a community we are beginning to see the results of these bad practices. Many of the popular what they call flavour type plants from the usa have major issues with vigour and produce small pop corn type buds on spindly plants that take ages to veg. We have a lot of genetics were no one really knows the actual pedigrees of that have or pass on mutations, have vigour issues and will self pollinate and create seed. The effects of using reversing and reversed plants irresponsibly and the damage its done to the commercial gene pool isnt good for any of us and is not something that can be easily fixed.

 

[musashi]

Not to mention the rampant HLVd in the US bc of unsanitary practices compounding the problem of unhealthy plants.

mu

 

[easty]

My personal opinion is to keep them regs. If someone wants feminised seeds, it's easy enough for them to make their own. That way they select the female they want and make the beans!

 

[Throwback]

Its not so easy for everyone to make a fem cross of say, c5 x (nl5 x haze A)
So there is a place were it could be useful.
Not in propagation of plants, you have to still check for hermies just like checking for males.
But in a situation where there is no other option.
Shanti does still have other options though, but they wouldn't be that exact cross of those 2 stellar females.

 

[rijkmus]

I remember when feminized seeds came out. There was some who did not support it. Same with rudelaris. I used feminized account of being outdoors and in a country where it was illegal. I think most of us here are looking for things from the old days. Shanti has most of the old strains that he bred. He has saved them from genetic drift. I am old and I don't think I will make it to legalization. I will not vote either way. Shanti is the breeder we come here to try to get the strains that he preserved and nutured for many years from our youth.

 

[earth magic]

Yes I would definitely say fem seeds are closer to the desired pheno than a normal cross.

Growing mns gear, you'll find phenos all over the place. That's why many say to pop the entire pack to find your keeper. Most Growing for their own personal use don't have the room for 18-20 plants just to find one maybe 2 that you deem worthy of multiple cycles. That's quite a bit of wasted space and electricity.

I've yet to grow a fem seed from a company worth their weight in salt that wasn't good. This isn't just coincidence.

The whole clone idea is ideal but incredibly unlikely. Dr greenthumb did acquire his G13 from Shanti at one point for a hefty sum I believe, but that's far beyond your average grower. Also the reviews that poured in on his release of the g13 fem mostly said the bud tasted like burnt rubber and didn't get them high. No denying though that the structure and look of the plant was remarkable, but most regretted the 150$ per bean price tag. To me, it looked more like a plant for a skilled breeder like Shanti to cross and bring the best of both worlds rather than a normal grower looking for a mom in their grow room. Hence the g13xww as my pick.

By no means am I saying to do away with regs. I'd even love to run regs of many strains Shanti has such as shark shock. If it leaned widow or skunk I wouldn't care as both are on my to do list. But when it comes to plants I regularly hear of people having to do quite a bit of selection to find a keeper, that deters me majorly (critical and g13 comes to mind).

BTW does anyone else remember insomniac with Dave Attell? I loved the episode where he went to Amsterdam and the first thing they threw at him in the coffee shop was Ak47. They told him "we all like to watch the Americans fall on their asses here".

AK-47: The Weed Strain That Knocks You On Your Butt | Wikileaf

AK-47 is a beloved strain that has been around since the early 1990’s. Here's the history of one of the world's most awarded strains.

www.wikileaf.com

"When Serious Seeds’ signature strain first hit the coffee shops in Amsterdam, it was so common for users to fall off of their bar stools mid-joint that people would jokingly remark that it looked like they’d been hit by an AK-47"

What was it about the AK that dropped rookies in such a manner? I used to love seeing people around me reaching for anything to hold themselves up when the head rush hit. What strain is similar in the mns catalog?

The variability in a pack of mns seed is not caused by them being regular v femme
It's selection of the breeder to not bottleneck the genetics

Some breeders can try and isolate a special pheno, so the grower has a higher chance of finding the keeper pheno.
Some breeders can choose to maintain genetic variability

It's about selection of the breeding stock, not their sex

 

[earth magic]

I voted for yes, for a few reasons.

Those that don't want them, don't have to buy them.
Those that want them, should have the opportunity to buy them.

There are possibilities to make crosses with females that are not possible without bringing in a male pollen source to cross with one of the females first, then a male selection needs to be made to bring back to the second female. In this step, the secrets of the male come in to play.
So in some cases, it may be better not to introduce that variable.

The reason a lot of fem seed may be good quality, is because both plants used have been judged adequate based on actual evaluation of the buds they produce. But combining ability still comes into play no matter what plants you cross.

With males, you don't see the finished buds of that exact plant. Knowing quality and traits of the gene pool the male comes from helps, but doesn't show the individual you choose to use.

Fem seed is good for creating additional possibilities, that is it.

My most recent run of fem seed is a great example.
Cookies and cream x red pop, otherwise called Dreamsicle by exotic genetics.
Quality of the keeper? Acceptable.
How many seeds? 6
How many other plants were good quality? All of them.
How many hermaphrodites? 5 out of 6

So, fem seed is not a viable product for production, as selection still needs to take place.

Did you get 5 of your 6 plants displaying intersexing?

That alone would put me off female seed

I'd rather grow 10 regular, and be able to select from the 6 girls, than have to grow 36 femme seeds, to find 6 stable ones

Also, you can see what a males flowers are like by checking the way they set pollen.
Some are clearly more prolific than others.
This is also the point of doing test grows of the parents as they are selected

If you are a professional breeder, it is a necessity
If you are a hobby breeder, you can just select to your own requirements
If you don't breed at all, just cull your males.

A plant only needs a gallon of room before you can sex it, so it doesn't need a lot of time or resources to carry males, if you cull them all

 

[longball]

I have grown around 100 feminized plants. 0 hermies. I suspect the problem with hermies is the 'breeder'.

Longball

 

[Throwback]

Yes, some fems carry quite the potential to herm, that is why i say the only real use is if there isnt an option for a regular version.

Longball, what fems and breeders have you run?
That is some good results, i do assume you are talking indoors, not out?

Not even regular seed is always so stable, hermies can be found in both.

 

[Throwback]

And actually now that i remember correctly, 5 of 6 germed, 4 of those 5 hermed.
But all i need is one good solid female, and all the effort and risk is rewarded.

Ive made seeds with hermie females, and found good solid females in the resulting seed.

I view seeds as an opportunity, with no guarantee.

 

[longball]

Throwback Said: "I view seeds as an opportunity, with no guarantee."

Life is kinda like that....

 

[longball]

Throwback asked: "Longball, what fems and breeders have you run? That is some good results, i do assume you are talking indoors, not out?

The strains are all the common famous names, Skunk, Super Skunk, Jack Herer, Northern Lights, Master Kush, Grand Daddy Purple, etc. I truly doubt that these are the real old school genetics. But they are great plants and potent. None of the five of us have ever had a single hermie. I myself grow outdoors. The breeder is a friend in town. I suspect he does not want to be mentioned. He works with a breeder who supposedly sells to dispensaries in Massachusetts. The funny thing here is that when my friends go to the Mass. Dispensaries and buy a 1/8, or whatever, it usually has a few seeds in it. So someone is screwing something up over there. That is just my experience, someone else may say they have never gotten a seed from Mass. When we grow these seeds we get some giant-ass(means really big) non-hermie female plants. None of us breed so that is the end of the line.

I have pretty much switched over to growing Mr. Nice plants. I not really sure why I made the switch. Sometimes the real question is; "Why Ask Why?". I only grew 1 feminized plant this year. A Grand Daddy Purple. It did not hermie. Produced some beautiful smelling and potent buds. I took one look at her and said; "You sure do have a purdy mouth, girl!"


Longball

 

[musashi]

Feminized seeds have a place. They serve a need and for some people, they are the cat's meow for many reasons. This is evidenced by sales. I've seen potency and stability in these. In the hands of true breeders, taking a selfed plant thru several generations will reveal problems or not. And that's the difference between a professional and an amateur who usually forgo the testing, reasoning that an intersex problem is of no consequence. The pro and the amateur, they have different expectations, one is long term, the other often is short term. Neither is right or wrong really.
For the record, I have no problem with stable fems. I've found some worthwhile smoke. However, it is unforgivable when these plants (purchased seeds) change-over polluting an entire grow especially when you might be doing a selective pollination or focused on a purely sinsemilla crop. As always it pays to buy from reputable companies.
For most of us, we learn from the burn.

mu

 

[longball]

Yes, any seed, fem or reg, by any company or any breeder who has ever lived, or will ever live, has a possibility of turning hermie. As mentioned, that sucks, so we must remain ever vigilant in our search for hermies, irregardless of where we got the seeds!

Longball