Do you even need a male anymore?

shantibaba

Breeder and moderator
We made a lot of CBD hybrids and really i cannot control who buys or resells them and in what name they end up as...but we never made or sold directly to GH this strain super lemon haze cbd. Hope that is clear all the best Sb
 

Vlad the Inhaler

Active member
Hi All

Mr Nice Seedbank remains a regular seed company, CBD crew is both regulars and feminized and behind the scenes many rooms i run make specific seed for specific companies from orders. Nevil, myself and Dave Watson all experimented with all things but the unanimous agreement about keeping feminized seed out of breeding is something we all agreed about. Of course since those days there are companies just pumping out seed production with little respect for breeding properly or testing...more about new flavors and quantities than special trait breeding. However if you are interested in keeping genetic diversity healthy and alive then you use male and female selections. Maybe i am old school thinking but after the millions of seeds i have created and made over the last 30 + years i see good old seeds made with true male pollen and true females create incredibly vital and voracious growing offspring...we weeded out hermaphrodites from most gene pools over years of selective trait breeding, it does not make sense to put it back? The reality is if feminized seed is all you are after then you can produce it yourself on choice clones....why buy it? You may possibly do a better more thorough job than some of the offers available today!

Whichever way you tend to favor it is always good to keep things diverse and with a natural range...and try to replicate nature rather than monsanto.

All the best Sb

If you are interested in maintaining genetic diversity?

What an excellent point.

If your breeding program is just about the next step, for sure put a cpl of nice femmes together, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

If you want to bring what a strain, or two, have to offer forwards and presreve its capacity for future development, then breed appropriately.

I like how MNS breeding allows you to select variable pheno to suit the grower. A few so-so types to sort through, but that's the fun of gardening
 

Big Sur

Active member
I never realized people were breeding out the fem seeds. We tried it in the 2000's and every time the resulting seeds came up with lots of deformities and herms. So we've been telling people for years "DO NOT BREED WITH FEM SEED!". Although getting online now I see many others disagree with that. I read they used stress in the early days and now with chemicals to make the fem seed. Not sure if that's true or not but I would never breed with them again. Personally, the males always seem to grow the fastest and with the most vigor, very desirable traits.
I have seen that with almost all of my landrace grows. The males generally grow better and faster than the females. But that should only be due to hormones, as it is in humans, hormones are what really control the sexual phenotype and growth. Male humans are also on average larger than female humans. Only 6% of flowering plant species retain the dioecious (male and female sex) trait though. So it is far more rare in plants than in animals.

Breeding from feminized females in my experience results in fewer males and more females. Also more herms. Rob Clarke says in his old book Mj Botany that the ratio of females to males in the general population of Cannabis plants as far back as 1981 was already 60/40 F/M due to selecting grows for females to produce sinsemilla. He states that the ratio can go as high as 80/20 F/M in heavily female selected breeding stock.
 

Vlad the Inhaler

Active member
I have seen that with almost all of my landrace grows. The males generally grow better and faster than the females. But that should only be due to hormones, as it is in humans, hormones are what really control the sexual phenotype and growth. Male humans are also on average larger than female humans. Only 6% of flowering plant species retain the dioecious (male and female sex) trait though. So it is far more rare in plants than in animals.

Breeding from feminized females in my experience results in fewer males and more females. Also more herms. Rob Clarke says in his old book Mj Botany that the ratio of females to males in the general population of Cannabis plants as far back as 1981 was already 60/40 F/M due to selecting grows for females to produce sinsemilla. He states that the ratio can go as high as 80/20 F/M in heavily female selected breeding stock.
Hey man.

It's a little simplistic to suggest male plants are taller like male animals, *because of hormones*.

Form follows function in nature

Male mammals normally have to fight to breed, so they pack testosterone.
Male spiders and many other animals are not larger than females at all, so your suggestion isn't really true.

The reason why male canna plants are taller than the female isn't because it's packing roids, or physically fighting it's opponents, it's maybe so the pollen can drop down onto the females near by.

If the male was shorter, it would only shed onto the bottom half of nearby femmes.
Canna pollen obviously will blow on the wind, but it likes to drop heavily.
That's why the male stretches so noticeably at maturity.

That's a take on it anyway.
 
Last edited:

Big Sur

Active member
Hey man.

It's a little simplistic to suggest male plants are taller like male animals, *because of hormones*.
Well hey back...

It is simplistic, yes. But it is a fact that hormones (particularly male hormones that in turn activate growth hormones) do make males larger in both species. I was simply making a statement about the physiology comparison, and I am not saying that they evolved this way for similar reasons, which they did not. But hormones are what make the difference in size between sexes in both humans and Cannabis. What in turn has driven the male hormones in these species is another discussion. You seem to want to delve into that on a grand scale. Well, I do not want to go down to the level of parallel evolution, quantum field theory and the theory of relativity to explain exactly why the universe is the way that it is in every post here. Life is too short for that. If I am too simplistic for you, so be it.

Or are you just picking a fight with me here over piddly BS? Seems people here like to do that. Especially the Aussies.
 
Last edited:

Vlad the Inhaler

Active member
Well hey back...

It is simplistic, yes. But it is a fact that hormones (particularly male hormones that in turn activate growth hormones) do make males larger in both species. I was simply making a statement about the physiology comparison, and I am not saying that they evolved this way for similar reasons, which they did not. But hormones are what make the difference in size between sexes in both humans and Cannabis. What in turn has driven the male hormones in these species is another discussion. You seem to want to delve into that on a grand scale. Well, I do not want to go down to the level of parallel evolution, quantum field theory and the theory of relativity to explain exactly why the universe is the way that it is in every post here. Life is too short for that. If I am too simplistic for you, so be it.

Or are you just picking a fight with me here over piddly BS? Seems people here like to do that. Especially the Aussies.
Theory of relativity?
Lol

Male insects don't always show sexual variation
The ones that do are often smaller.
Nor do many male fish show different size in sexes.
Birds don't always show difference in size between sexes.
Nor reptiles.
They all have sex hormones obviously

Nature isn't extravagant, if an animal is larger, it needs more energy and can die from undernutrition more easily.

Some animals show sexual dimorphism, but not as many as you may think.

Male canna is taller just cos it's a dude, like us, is pretty glib.

I replied to your post because, as I said before, it's just ridiculously simplistic, and I offered what I thought was a more reasonable cause for the canna male to be taller.

It's not to pick on you, lol, like everyone else out to get you, or whatever you reckon is going on.

I do think that male canna plants are taller to spread pollen more efficiently to the shorter femmes, though.
 
Last edited:

Tom bolenate

Well-known member
do think that male canna plants are taller to spread pollen more efficiently to the smaller femmes, though.
Yes and they also often flower a bit faster to be ready at the right moment for females.
I also think that the male hormones hypothesis is wrong... Females are a bit smaller but are way bigger.... They produce more biomass than the tallers but skinnier males....
Antropomorphism is a comon bias we all make when we try to study animals or plants.... I don't claim it's the truth just my two cents piddly BS Frenchy opinion.....
 
Last edited:

megnu

New member
I was listening to the Potcast with DJ Short and he talks about picking good males to work with. Interesting stuff I think we have not even touched the surface of the science yet I hear a lot justifying breeding fem seeds because selfing is common in agriculture. But where is the research on long term effects of STS?
 

Vlad the Inhaler

Active member
Yes and they also often flower a bit faster to be ready at the right moment for females.
I also think that the male hormones hypothesis is wrong... Females are a bit smaller but are way bigger.... They produce more biomass than the tallers but skinnier males....
Antropomorphism is a comon bias we all make when we try to study animals or plants.... I don't claim it's the truth just my two cents piddly BS Frenchy opinion.....

Good point on the biomass.

## hey BS, cheers for the PM telling me I'm on your legendary ignore list, now.
I was surprised I wasn't already on it.

You would have more members on that list, than members you feel comfortable communicating with, wouldn't you??


bill-and-ben1.jpg
 
Last edited:

59lespaul

Member
Do you know of a seedbank or breeder that stocks Maui waui cherry bomb, Durban poison I had read Columbians can take a life time to finish. My indoor set up is small but I can wrangle sativas and train them but super long flowers are a test of my will and also my bud supply.

Sativas need to be preserved in this day and age of cannabis... It's the landraces we seem to be losing with all the fad strains and fast flowering indicas, it seems everyone just wants to smoke and glue their arse's to the sofa lol.

Bong

Swami Organic Seeds has the real deal Cherry Bomb straight from the original breeder. Mr Greengenes.
 

Big Sur

Active member
Can't look at their selection of beans for some reason.

Cheers for the shout-out though mate I'll definitely look into them.

Bong
I heard it through the grapevine from a reliable srouce that their MWCB had been inadvertently bred with Vietnam Black, and as such now has VN and herm traits. I do not see CB listed on their web site any more. They only have CB listed in a couple of hybrids. To get to the list you have to click on 'seed request' and scroll down, and to the right is the available strain list.
 
I heard it through the grapevine from a reliable srouce that their MWCB had been inadvertently bred with Vietnam Black, and as such now has VN and herm traits. I do not see CB listed on their web site any more. They only have CB listed in a couple of hybrids. To get to the list you have to click on 'seed request' and scroll down, and to the right is the available strain list.
Cheers sur appreciate the help :)
I'm finding any true strain is a pain in the arse to get hold of, I want to taste the true oldschool but it's seemingly impossible to find.

Bong
 

Big Sur

Active member
Yes and they also often flower a bit faster to be ready at the right moment for females.
I also think that the male hormones hypothesis is wrong... Females are a bit smaller but are way bigger.... They produce more biomass than the tallers but skinnier males....
Antropomorphism is a comon bias we all make when we try to study animals or plants.... I don't claim it's the truth just my two cents piddly BS Frenchy opinion.....
Not sure I follow you here. How can females be smaller and bigger? I simply pointed out that males are taller (on average) in both species. I do not see any anthropomorphism here per se. I am not saying that human males being taller than females has anything to do with Cannabis males being taller than females. Far from it. We evolved differently and the hormones controlling growth are different. I am only saying that hormones are what control the different suxual expressed phenotype attributes in both species, and in both cases, they result in males being taller (again on average). A coincidental result. Yes, there are exceptions, and some females are taller and bigger than males in both species. I get that... I am only talking about general species averages here. And the fact that they are hormone controlled. Many female Cannabis plants will also grow larger than males because they are grown as sinsemilla. This is not a commonly natural occurrence though. And humans have and can grow MASSIVE female cannabis plants of either sex. I have.
 

Vlad the Inhaler

Active member
Not sure I follow you here. How can females be smaller and bigger? I simply pointed out that males are taller (on average) in both species. I do not see any anthropomorphism here per se. I am not saying that human males being taller than females has anything to do with Cannabis males being taller than females. Far from it. We evolved differently and the hormones controlling growth are different. I am only saying that hormones are what control the different suxual expressed phenotype attributes in both species, and in both cases, they result in males being taller (again on average). A coincidental result. Yes, there are exceptions, and some females are taller and bigger than males in both species. I get that... I am only talking about general species averages here. And the fact that they are hormone controlled. Many female Cannabis plants will also grow larger than males because they are grown as sinsemilla. This is not a commonly natural occurrence though. And humans have and can grow MASSIVE female cannabis plants of either sex. I have.
Smaller ( shorter ) and bigger ( more biomass, stockier )

If hormones control all expression in growth , HGH auxin etc, and sexual hormones relate to sexual expression in both plants and animals, I still don't understand the association you are suggesting.

You can grow any plant large by giving it good root space and a very long veg time.
If you grew a male in a 200 gallon tub, and vegged him for 8 months, he would be a tree also, wouldn't he?

You were originally writing about same genotype growing in same conditions, weren't you?
Not growing one plant or another in more favorable environment.
 
Last edited:

Big Sur

Active member
Some daughters are bigger/taller than their mothers as well.

I just found out that I am an uncle again. A 40 year old 'daughter' in SoCal did a genetic DNA test and came up as a cousin to my next older brother's daughter. All she had was a last name of her father. So she found my niece on Facebook. When asked, I never knew her mother. So she is not my daughter. It turns out that she is the daughter of my oldest brother. Some fling in the 1980s with an airline stewardess... and my new niece has been looking for her father for about a decade now. My oldest brother has another daughter in her late 20s. So they both have half sisters now too. They are both a lot taller than their respective mothers. Basketball players.
 
Males are still very important. In my opinion a male has the ability to cary its own lineage and bloodline in its own individual direction. With out males your taking a fasttrack to inbreeding problems. Iv seen this myself with for example some of the cookies based lines. Some cookies seedlines out there have there entire lineage based on reversed female clones. In these lines ive seen some serious inbreeding problems. Deformities, low vigour, low resistance, auto flowering, low yields, week sick looking plants that take months to veg similar sizes to normal plants. Now if the line had originally been planned and the male and female parents progeny tested to breed a proper line I dont think these issues would be there. What we have now is a seriously contaminated gene pool due to people useing bag seed from hermie prone lines and chucking reversed pollen on already reversed lines to the point were no one really knows the lineage to half the things. Doing this for 20 years has caused some serious degradation in the pool.
 

MImedpatient

Well-known member
Males are still very important. In my opinion a male has the ability to cary its own lineage and bloodline in its own individual direction. With out males your taking a fasttrack to inbreeding problems. Iv seen this myself with for example some of the cookies based lines. Some cookies seedlines out there have there entire lineage based on reversed female clones. In these lines ive seen some serious inbreeding problems. Deformities, low vigour, low resistance, auto flowering, low yields, week sick looking plants that take months to veg similar sizes to normal plants. Now if the line had originally been planned and the male and female parents progeny tested to breed a proper line I dont think these issues would be there. What we have now is a seriously contaminated gene pool due to people useing bag seed from hermie prone lines and chucking reversed pollen on already reversed lines to the point were no one really knows the lineage to half the things. Doing this for 20 years has caused some serious degradation in the pool.
I agree. about the cookie. my friend has the original cut. I've grown quite a few other cuts, and hybrids with the forum cut(he gave me mac 1 caps cut, but will not share the cookie, its weird). IMO the best someone can do is cross it to an Afghani like bodhi did, and make massive high yielding "fortune cookie" type hybrids that aren't hermie accident trash.
 

Wilbur Stagg

New member
I have seen that with almost all of my landrace grows. The males generally grow better and faster than the females. But that should only be due to hormones, as it is in humans, hormones are what really control the sexual phenotype and growth. Male humans are also on average larger than female humans. Only 6% of flowering plant species retain the dioecious (male and female sex) trait though. So it is far more rare in plants than in animals.

Breeding from feminized females in my experience results in fewer males and more females. Also more herms. Rob Clarke says in his old book Mj Botany that the ratio of females to males in the general population of Cannabis plants as far back as 1981 was already 60/40 F/M due to selecting grows for females to produce sinsemilla. He states that the ratio can go as high as 80/20 F/M in heavily female selected breeding stock.
I always assumed that the males grew taller so as to be able to spread their pollen wider and further in the wind and reach as many females as they can . Through natural selection taller males would eventually become dominant . From the plants perspective the seed bearing female being a little more predominant is probably a healthy thing at 60 40 . The old timers told me years ago that a close to 50 50 ratio is a sign of good stable breeding . Has anyone else noticed the very even male to female ratio in all mns packs compared to most other so called breeders packs. I consistently get 9 or ten females out of 18 seeds. I have grown many indoor cuttings that were stable inside for veg and flowered outside. A small percentage would hermie, no nanners would show . A single male embryo would pollinate a single calyx and you would get just one or two seed per plant that did turn. Those seeds would all be female. If you reveged those plants then flowered them all again a greater percentage would hermie, or if you grew their seed or their seeds seed every subsequent generation would hermie at a greater rate until you ended up with plants that were almost half female half male in expression. I would only grow the seeds from those plants outside and only for a single season and never take cuttings or breed with them as the hermaphrodite trait was prevalent. And only for experiment and a lack of access to copious amounts of good seed as there was a period after hydroponics went mainstream that males and natural propagation were forgotten about it was all about growing the same female indoors from cuttings, and the odd seed you got in a bag of hydro was obviously an accidental fem as no one was growing males in their commercial crop. It led to a decrease in genetic diversity. Thankfully some had the foresight to save and preserve the gene pool . The same old timer told me that hemp was only one of six or seven plants in the world that would change sex in this fashion and that it was a survival instinct ,that all hemp plants have the ability to do so under stress and that possibly thousands of years ago there was only a single female left on earth which all the plants decend from and she did this to save the species from extinction . If so I am very great full.
 
Top