defoliation Yes or No

Defoliation - A Controversial Subject

Over a winter I had read a number of articles about defoliation with plenty of pictures of before and after and also control plants that were not defoliated. All articles were for indoor gardens. I grow outdoors but figured the principles were the same.
I decided to give it a try. For better or worse, we'll never know, but here is my experience with defoliation.

Defoliated Jack Herer - Was also first experience with 'lollipopping' so was very cautious and not a lot was done. Just enough fan leaves were left on to power the buds. Would I have had a better plant if I did not defoliate it? We will never know. What I do know is it was the best plant I've grown so far. Many growers would be very happy with a few plants like this!
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Defoliated Master Kush - would I have had better plants if I had not defoliated? Again, we will never know. I do know that some(not all) buds from these plants will knock you on you arse! Enough leaves were kept on to power the buds.
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NON-Defoliated Super Skunk Beautiful plant. Nice yield. Hard to see anything about the buds. The potency was nowhere near the defoliated plants. However, this was not a scientific experiment and there are just too many variables to consider to be able to say that defoliated plants are better than non-defoliated plants. I am simply reporting what happened to me the one time I tried it. I can say for certain that I had a whole lot more trimming to do!!!
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****KEEP IN MIND

This was in no way a controlled scientific experiment. This is just a report of the village idiot trying something new. I can offer up no provable facts to support defoliating or not defoliating plants. I can only show what happened when I did and did not defoliate.

Longball
Awesome @longball ! That defoliated master kush is as close as example ive seen of what i did to get the effect of 64 plants off of the main stem ...i had them well established early in the outdoor season and visited them frequently to keep trimming fan leaves all through veg off of the main stem.
 
Here is later on with lights out so you can see not a single leaf cut, not a single leaf unhealthy, and buds to as low as you can see.....which is about 1.5-2 ft from ground level.
Anyone who's grown with a HPS should be able to see it's a 400 watt HPS......OMG it'll never penetrate !!!!!11
Try it and forget all those lies you've been told....the proof is in the doing.
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Plants that don't have a lot of naturally occurring leaves, such as the ones posted above, certainly do not need any defoliation.

Every now and then you run into a plant like this. So many leaves I only see darkness and shadows, and leaves covering the bud sites. I don't see any of that light myth stuff on the inside buds at all. Do I defoliate a bit or not? I decided not to defoliate as I needed a plant to compare against the defoliated plants. In the end this plant yielded the smallest buds and the least amount of smokable medicine. Was it because not enough of that light myth stuff was reaching the buds? Was it all the leaves covering the buds sites?
There simply was not enough light penetration.

The plants pictured above, while beautiful, are receiving light directly on the buds, there are no leaves to 'penetrate'. This plant below, hardly any light directly on the buds. As they say, the proof is in the doing. Grow plants with a known minimal amount of leaves to avoid defoliation.
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A sister plant, right next to the above plant had some defoliation done to it. It allowed for much better light penetration. It needed it. Much bigger buds and much bigger yield. Just my experience I am sharing, not a scientific experiment. Your experience may differ.
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Longball
 
I generally dont defoliate unless its dead leaves. And i mean dead, not yellow. I think you guys have seen my plants in their final weeks. I think you get less photosynthesis and it slows down ripening. At least that was my experience with figs because people said defoliating would speed up ripening. Well it didnt and i dont see why it would help mj.
 
Hello Jahnova!

You certainly grow awesome plants! :) Much respect there! I have noticed your plants don't have a lot of leaves either, so no need to defoliate. The leafy monstrosity I posted is another story. A friend of mine who is a respected grower, landscaper, and tree trimmer taught some me some defoliation tricks. I do not defoliate the plant naked but I take a few leaves to allow air and light in - if needed. Start on the inside. Most people cut off the big fans leaves on the outside of the plant. Bad move there for the reasons you mentioned.

Hope you don't mind I am using one of your pictures. No defoliation needed here as buds are exposed to light. Nothing to really 'penetrate' as the buds are getting plenty of light and air. Beautiful plant! :love:
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Longball
 
What i do is top them than stake the new shoots quite young.
I dont stake for weight support but for a good even spread, 1 shoot per bamboo placed on the outside of the pots.
If you do this when they are young you just train them up the bamboo and they will cast zero shadow on other branches and light will penetrate all through the plant especially in indoor setups where light always comes from straight above.
 
Wow! Great insider tip! Thank you so much for sharing your 'tricks', Jahnova! :) I only started growing in 2019 so I am still quite the dumbass! huh huh
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Longball
 
THX beautiful examples,it is sometimes sad when people follow wrong advice especially when they grow for the first time and then you see plants that are plucked bare and the person wonders why no buds grow
I was once told that also the leaves at the very bottom still produce energy even in the shade
*edit* every one talk knows how important light is but i think (total noob) that there should be more talk about the wind which is undoubtedly(me think) as important as light as cannabis is a wind pollinator(it's written this way?) and i think there could be potential imagine a plant has 2 bud sides one is in full wind the other gets no wind i could imagine that the bud in wind will be better developed than the bud without duo to the fact that pollen trafels with the wind so the best chances for pollination is then the buds are in the wind and i think the plant knows that even if many do not want to admit such an intelligens to a plant
 
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...I do not defoliate the plant naked but I take a few leaves to allow air and light in - if needed. Start on the inside. Most people cut off the big fans leaves on the outside of the plant. Bad move there for the reasons you mentioned...

Common sense and classic Master Gardener stuff.
Here's a Mango IBL plant using the technique of opening up the center for better air circulation and light penetration.
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🤙mu
 
Thank you so much for sharing your 'tricks', Jahnova! :)
Wow, i didnt know you took that personal. I didnt quote you, it was just a general reply to OP who clearly stated he has just started growing indoors.
If i wanted to compare dicks and see who is the most 'experienced' i would be on ICMAG with all the other "kings."
But i'm not...
 
Light penetration is a myth....no not a myth, an out and out lie.
If light penetration was an issue this would not be possible.
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Well I think when we talk about light penetration we should make a clear distinction between light penetration due to defoliation and light penetration of different light sources.

Concerning light penetration of different light sources I fully agree that that its a myth. In my opinion its all about light intensity in terms of PPFD. A fluorescent tube may not give the same light intensity than a 400W HPS but if you use enough of them then theoretically you can get the same light intensity and the same results than with HPS. If this is feasible in practice I dont know, but a photon of specific wavelength will always behave the same once emitted and wont care if it was emitted by a HPS light or any other light source. However there is scientific evidence of some wavelengths like green (550nm) that penetrate deeper into the canopy, but I dont think this makes a big difference in the end.

Concerning defoliation I dont agree with you because if you remove leaves it is logical that the light travels deeper into the canopy because it is not intercepted early on. The study that was shared here showed that with a double topping the yield remains the same but the cannabinoid content is more uniform among the buds. This is because you dont grow as many of those small popcorn buds that dont receive enough light. So in my opinion one should either defoliate those leaves that hide the smaller bud sites, or you leave the leaves and trim the sucker branches carrying only popcorn buds. You could of course argue that removing leaves reduces whole plant photosynthesis and sugar production etc. But photosynthesis is not everything as buds also need direct light to produce more cannabinoids.

Now dont get me wrong, this does not mean that without defoliation you cannot get good results. But saying that defoliation only harms the plant is false...after all defoliation is common practice in tomato production to speed up ripening and get a sweeter product.

Peace ✌️ DjG
 
There is more than one way to skin a cat.

There are also many types of cats.

Also, plants evolved around herbivores and are well equipped to deal with some defoliation.
I think the movie was called Caveman ?
Ringo Star.... dinosaur was eating Ringos plant?
 
@Jahnova said:"Wow, i didnt know you took that personal. I didnt quote you, it was just a general reply to OP who clearly stated he has just started growing indoors. If i wanted to compare dicks and see who is the most 'experienced' i would be on ICMAG with all the other "kings." But i'm not..."

Hello Jahnova!

I apologize if I offended you. I truly intended it to be a supreme compliment. You have great growing skills. I am rather new at growing and most likely would not have thought of the trick in a thousands years. I will most certainly use that trick in this year's grow. It is something I had not heard of and it sounds like a great idea. Many good growers often post up pics of plants without any useful information an inexperienced grower like myself can use. I was very grateful that you posted up a little trick I could use. Thank you! :)

I apologize for any misunderstanding. Please take my comment as the compliment in was meant to be and thanks again for giving me a bit more knowledge about growing! Looking forward to your next grows!

Longball
 
Dj_Greenhouse said: "...after all defoliation is common practice in tomato production to speed up ripening and get a sweeter product."

Hello Dj_Greenhouse!

I find it funny you should mention that. I was talking to my niece yesterday and she told me she had her first mj grow last summer. I did not know it. She showed me some nice pictures, she did a good job and gave me a sample. Anyway, she started talking about her tomato plants, she had been growing them for years and she defoliates them to speed up ripening and to get a sweeter product. I don't grow tomato's and had never heard of this. Now I am hearing it twice within 24 hours!

I wonder if the OP has gotten the clear-cut yes or no answer he was looking for about defoliation. I hope so! :)

Longball
 
Depends on the tomato variety though. With indeterminate tomatoes you have to prune to keep 1 main stem growing almost forever. Some get like 5 to 6 meter long that way. For determinate tomatoes you shouldnt prune at all and leave them as they are. At least that was what i was doing in my self sufficient years when i still had time and space for that.
 
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