Badrabbit's Kaze Grow

badrabbit

New member
Greetings all;

I had a mind to post this one only when finished, but I've decided to make it more of an ongoing report as some of the progress is at least mildly interesting. Sorry, but no photos at this point; I will, at the least, do some photo's of the finished plants.

Genetic: Master Kaze (Mk/Skunk X Haze), seed pack of 18 purchased in June 2011.

- Started in RW cubes under flouro's on July 2nd
- 17 of 18 germinated at varying rates
- Seedlings looked almost wildly variable in the first few weeks for leaf size, structure and height/growth pattern.
- The hazier looking seedlings (skinnier leaves, more delicate structure) showed both nute and light sensitivity, fatter indica leaners showed no sensitivity at all.)

- Flipped to 12/12 on 7/23 after 3 weeks veg growth under a 600W HPS Sun System)/ I really agonized over this since they seemed barely mature enough to flower, but I decided to go to flowering early since I had a crowded grow in the 'closet room' and figured I'd better stay with a shorter, more easily managed grow, especially with a few showing strong haze tendencies.

- As flowering began, 11 females were identified (pretty nice ratio!). 6 were clearly male (no intent to breed/seed here) and 1 was such a runt that regardless of sex it was not going to make the cut. (first time I've ever seen a runt like that in an MNS pack)

- took cuts and 'lollipopped' the remaining females last week - they were really stretching, but I thought it'd slow down soon. WRONG!

- So far, I'm not sure I can even describe the plants except to say that the stretch is a shock. I thought I started flowering too early and would have a manageable grow ... well, quite the opposite has happened.

They've way 'out-stretched' my other haze hybrid grows (including MNS SSH) by a LONG shot and, unfortunately, I've had to bend tops down of almost every one of them. They've thoroughly outgrown the room height and it will have to be a grow in which all the plants are bent. (Incidentally, I did no topping as the seedlings really didn't hint at the stretch I was about to get).

Not the end of the world ... but I'm quite surprised; Kaze is clearly showing a lot of haze influence and I can only hope the finish time and yield are also not so far to the haze side. I was really looking for more indica leaning/kushy phenos out of the grow... doubt that's going to be the case. BUT, I'm still very positive that I could find some wonderful keepers in there.

So far, I'd say they show excellent vigor (ahem!), are moderately branchy with medium to long internode length. The clear variations between plants that I saw as seedlings is not very evident now. They look fairly uniform in most cases. Tall, hazy looking but with a moderate leaf width.

So, expect a finish in mid to late september (Sept 30 would be 70 days I believe). Of course, with the stretchy nature of these plants, it could go longer.

So far, I'm getting no distinctive aroma other than "pot growing", but it is early and the room/hydro table layout makes it difficult to closely inspect the full crow.

Cheers; hope you find some interest in this grow, I'll be happy to answer any questions and will post photos in the future.

best,
rabbit
 

Cptn

Active member
Hi Rabbit.
Very interested in your grow as I am doing MKxSk right now, but have ASH and SSH next in line.
I also work with very tight headspace (36 inches max plant height from top of pot to "light safe distance."
As I plan to grow some strains that are notoriously stretchy, I have put a lot of thought into how to grow them as compact as possible.
This is what I have come up with:
Sexual Maturity: Cannabis plants given a flowering )12/12) photoperiod before they have reached sexual maturity will tend to take longer to flip into flower production.
Light Spectrum: Flowering lights (HPS) with high red spectrum promote stretch in vegetative plants. Keeping blue spectrum light (or a mix of blue and red) for the first 2 weeks of 12/12 may result in less stretch.

Small but mature plants?
The benefit of starting with as short a plant as possible to allow room to stretch is spoiled by the growth spurt a sexually immature plant displays when thrown into flower. How to get a small but sexually mature plant? Well cuttings of course :)
  • Growing the plant out longer in veg, only to take all that growth and not use it is not the most efficient use of time and energy, BUT, it allows you to take relatively large (6 to nine inches), vigorous cuttings and place them into flower. These plants carry the sexual maturity of the momma, are ready to produce full, branchy plants and will flip much more aggressively, reducing stretch.
  • Combine this with a mix of blue/red light during the first 2 weeks and you are pretty much doing everything possible to produce compact plants from stretchy breeds.
Topping is personal preference (I do not like it but many do.)
LST or more aggressive training options (SCROG, etc.) is something that is better when planned for/anticipated.
Nutrient transitions may also be a factor to be exploited here. Maybe another member with experience can jump in with some suggestions.

All the best!
Cptn
 
M

Mr Nuggett

Guest
HELLO BADRABBIT! Good luck, will be lurking! GREAT POST Capt MNF NEEDS MORE POST LIKE THIS! THANKS FOR THE INFORMATION! PEACE! MR NUGGETT.
 

badrabbit

New member
Thank you Cptn, good information.

My headroom is actually a good 4 1/2 ft to stay under the max height of the lamp ... so it's small, but I've been able to fit most haze influenced plants in it.

I'm particularly interested in one of the quotes you've provided above... it suggests a complex relationship between maturity and stretch; meaning that a taller plant, more mature, might actually stretch less, if I read it right. Very interesting.

Also, keeping the plants under MH (Which I do use often for veg) is an interesting thought.

Finally, yes, part of the reason I'm not terribly concerned is that, while I hope to get some delightful bud out of the grow, I've already taken cuttings and I'm much more interested in finding a great keeper, and then running clones. Once in clone, topping is usually part of my routine too ... depends on the plant.

So, it was a surprise that it stretched so much, but no disaster by any stretch (to badly mix my metaphors).

So, can't wait to hear your Mk/Sk grow results ... long story, but that's what I intended to grow. Attitude seed bank actually had their headers mixed up, sent me the wrong pack and I literally didn't notice they had sent the Kaze instead until I had already ripped the pack open.

Bastards! (They admitted the mistake but didn't attempt to make it up to me beyond saying "sorry charly").

Anyway, I'll see what I can get out of this one ... sometimes serendipity intervenes in our plans and delivers delightful surprises.

cheers,
rabbit
 
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badrabbit

New member
HELLO BADRABBIT! Good luck, will be lurking! GREAT POST Capt MNF NEEDS MORE POST LIKE THIS! THANKS FOR THE INFORMATION! PEACE! MR NUGGETT.
thanks Nuggett ... I'm also chasing the holy grail 'kush' plant that everyone seems to be after ... rather than looking out side the family though, I've decided to really pursue what Shanti offers in the MNS lineup, so I'm going to run Kaze, MkXSk and Nordle in the next few moths to see what I can find.

cheers,
rabbit
 

Cptn

Active member
badrabbit said:
I'm particularly interested in one of the quotes you've provided above... it suggests a complex relationship between maturity and stretch; meaning that a taller plant, more mature, might actually stretch less, if I read it right. Very interesting.
Well, consider this: The girl is not ready to flower, but the environment is screaming "FLOWER TIME!"
Whats a girl to do? Grow UP . . . quick.
As a weed, cannabis has some very powerful survival mechanisms that require it to be sensitive to and respond quickly to changes in the environment.

Add to it that the blue light spectrum associated with compact growth in vegetative plants has been removed, and you aggravate the natural stretch that even mature plants go through during the flip. That stretch produces long colas with larger internodes to allow room for the flowers to grow into (once the plant's energy is committed to flowering) and ultimately catch some pollen.

badrabbit said:
Also, keeping the plants under MH (Which I do use often for veg) is an interesting thought.
Just to be clear, I am not saying to keep them under Halides for the whole flower cycle, just for the first week or 2 after the flip.

I have a 12 tube T5HO in my little flower bunker, and will be starting the 12/12 flip with 6 blue and 6 red tubes, swapping the blues out with reds 2 at a time through the second week.
When the 3rd week hits, it will be all 2900 kelvin bloom tubes.

I forgot to mention, vegging under T5's is also a good idea. They produce the most dense, compact plants out there. A good place to start before the flip ;) Their use in flowering is debated, but I hope to prove settle that debate with mine this fall.

badrabbit said:
Finally, yes, part of the reason I'm not terribly concerned is that, while I hope to get some delightful bud out of the grow, I've already taken cuttings and I'm much more interested in finding a great keeper, and then running clones.
No problem. I am doing the same thing (taking cuts, looking for keepers.) I am just suggesting that for stretchy phenos (or in my case, ALL phenos), you may want to flower the clone for your selection run and keep the seed plant as the mother. That way you put the smallest mature plant possible into flower as the cuts are sexually mature if the mother they came from was.
Did you clone the Mkaze before flipping to 12/12? I thought they were too small to clone?

badrabbit said:
So, it was a surprise that it stretched so much, but no disaster by any stretch (to badly mix my metaphors).
Love it :) Kush and Haze are both known to stretch/long internodes.

badrabbit said:
So, can't wait to hear your Mk/Sk grow results ... long story, but that's what I intended to grow. Attitude seed bank actually had their headers mixed up, sent me the wrong pack and I literally didn't notice they had sent the Kaze instead until I had already ripped the pack open.

Bastards! (They admitted the mistake but didn't attempt to make it up to me beyond saying "sorry charly").

Anyway, I'll see what I can get out of this one ... sometimes serendipity intervenes in our plans and delivers delightful surprises.

cheers,
rabbit
You may have gotten lucky, as there is no skunk in the Mkaze.
It may make your selection easier. Hard to say.
I have been kicking a lot of pics with Reason on his thread "Zinc or Manganese Deficiency?"

Will probably start a log soon, but till then, here is a pic for you from this morning:


20 MkxSk vegging under a 6 tube Quantum BadBoy T5 in mini Hempy buckets.

All the best badrabbit!
Cptn
 

Cptn

Active member
One more thing. :D
Have heard people say that lolypopping encourages growth in the meristem (main cola) and that for tight headroom environments, this should not be done until after the stretch.
Here is one example of people commenting on that:
Kashgar on ICmag in the MKxSk thread

No first hand experience with that, just internet talk that kind of makes sense.

I tend to fall on the side of leaving the leaves and branches on there unless it is causing a problem (air circulation, can't get to pots to water, etc.)
 
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badrabbit

New member
One more thing. :D
Have heard people say that lolypopping encourages growth in the meristem (main cola) and that for tight headroom environments, this should not be done until after the stretch.
No first hand experience with that, just internet talk that kind of makes sense.

I tend to fall on the side of leaving the leaves and branches on there unless it is causing a problem (air circulation, can't get to pots to water, etc.)
Cptn; you rock dude, thanks for the thoughtful and VERY helpful input.

I'm surprised at the timing of the 'lolllipopping', I was doing it at the start of the stretch as soon as I could sex the plants ... would love to explore that idea but since I'm new to the idea, I'm intrigued.

T5 recommendation ... cool, probably really good to think about when working with haze influenced plants.

And yes, I get the idea of blue spectrum early in flowering ... that jibes with what I've learned before; makes much sense.

Cloning then flowering out the clones: Yes, I've heard this recommendation and it's included in Shanti's personal recommendations. I haven't done it that way for several reasons ... limited space, timing and resources, as well as "I've always done it this way" leads to me to approach it the way I do ... cut clones, veg them out, then make several rounds of progressively narrowing the final keepers after running 2 or 3 rounds of clones. I know that's vaguely worded, but you know what I mean). Seems quicker for me to get the end result; but we'll see.

Finally, I've heard the "no skunk is good" idea in regards to the MK line several times now ... I'm missing the point! Is it that the skunk tends to overpower to flavor? Or other?

Anyway, I'll spend some time looking over your input, lots of good ideas and suggestion to chew on there, much appreciated my friend.

cheers,
rabbit
 

Cptn

Active member
I totally get it on the clones part. More than anything, it takes longer to do it how I am suggesting. It is killing me right now to wait extra time instead of throwing my plants into 12/12 in another week. Instead, I will probably be taking cuts some time next week, rooting for ten days, vegging for a week then flipping.
That is at least 17 extra days, just do maximize the grow space. If I had an extra foot of headroom, I would consider topping to create a shorter mature plant, but I like seeing the natural structure of the plant when I am doing a selection. Your lose that with topping.
Anyway, I see that you get it completely and have no doubt you will do what is best for you :)

On the skunk thing . . .
Don't get me wrong, I love skunk. For me, the smell triggers great memories of beautiful potent weed.
I think the issue is that there is skunk in just about every strain out there.
It is there for good reason: great flower structure, shortens bloom time in sativas, and great tasting, potent, vigor.
Where "skunk in everything" becomes an issue is when you are trying to breed distinctive keepers.
You said it yourself: You are trying to find a Kush keeper in MNS stock.
Ideally, you will start with something as purely kush as possible.
Later, you will inevitably make hybrids of your own.
But when you have a bunch of jars and they are labeled:
  • Kush
  • Haze
  • Thai
  • NL
  • Oaxacan Gold
  • Columbian Gold
  • Panama
  • Skunk
  • Pakistani
  • Nepal
  • Black Widow
  • Afghan
  • HashPlant
  • G13
Do you want them to all taste the same or similar, or do you want them to all be unique, distinctive, perfect examples of their type?

This is the foundation of your own breeding stock from which your own hybrids will evolve.

That's where I am coming from on that.
I am growing out breeding stock for my own future crosses. If I were just going crop to crop with no aspirations of future pollen chucking, I would run the hot hybrid of the day and never worry about what the genetics actually were.

Make sense?
Cptn

PS: post some pics :)
 
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badrabbit

New member
pics? yeh, I got pics ...

OK ... pics are kinda impractical in an overgrown room, but I did it anyway.

Can't see much, but:

11 Kaze females ... incidentally, there's some leaf blades in front that look damaged ... that's an artifact of the lighting, there's no yellowing or damage on the upper canopy leaves.

22 Kaze cuts (2 from each female); they look like they're reacting well a few days after the cut

I'll pull out the plants and get a decent shot of each one as they finish.

best,
rabbit
 

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badrabbit

New member
Well, consider this: The girl is not ready to flower, but the environment is screaming "FLOWER TIME!"
Whats a girl to do? Grow UP . . . quick.
As a weed, cannabis has some very powerful survival mechanisms that require it to be sensitive to and respond quickly to changes in the environment.

Add to it that the blue light spectrum associated with compact growth in vegetative plants has been removed, and you aggravate the natural stretch that even mature plants go through during the flip. That stretch produces long colas with larger internodes to allow room for the flowers to grow into (once the plant's energy is committed to flowering) and ultimately catch some pollen.
Just to be clear, I am not saying to keep them under Halides for the whole flower cycle, just for the first week or 2 after the flip.

I have a 12 tube T5HO in my little flower bunker, and will be starting the 12/12 flip with 6 blue and 6 red tubes, swapping the blues out with reds 2 at a time through the second week.
When the 3rd week hits, it will be all 2900 kelvin bloom tubes.

I forgot to mention, vegging under T5's is also a good idea. They produce the most dense, compact plants out there. A good place to start before the flip ;) Their use in flowering is debated, but I hope to prove settle that debate with mine this fall.


No problem. I am doing the same thing (taking cuts, looking for keepers.) I am just suggesting that for stretchy phenos (or in my case, ALL phenos), you may want to flower the clone for your selection run and keep the seed plant as the mother. That way you put the smallest mature plant possible into flower as the cuts are sexually mature if the mother they came from was.
Did you clone the Mkaze before flipping to 12/12? I thought they were too small to clone?



Love it :) Kush and Haze are both known to stretch/long internodes.



You may have gotten lucky, as there is no skunk in the Mkaze.
It may make your selection easier. Hard to say.
I have been kicking a lot of pics with Reason on his thread "Zinc or Manganese Deficiency?"

Will probably start a log soon, but till then, here is a pic for you from this morning:


20 MkxSk vegging under a 6 tube Quantum BadBoy T5 in mini Hempy buckets.

All the best badrabbit!
Cptn


by the way Captn, love it, you're just killing me with that gorgeous mk/s photo, ... looks quite suspiciously like the indica leaner nut-buster I lust for. So to speak.

Ah well ... in due time; look forward to your results.

at night,
rabbit
 

Cptn

Active member
Thanks Rabbit :eek:
I am thrilled with the hempy buckets and how easy it has been to dial in the PH.
Ran them up to 6.2 today and I think I will stay at 6.1. No harm done, but just kinda feel like 6.1 was ideal.

Your Mkaze girls look downright DANGEROUS :D
I can't wait to see what comes from them.
Don't worry about untangling them for pics. As they start flowering up, that dense hedge of bud is going to be beautiful!

Since you like 'em, here's a couple more pics from this morning :D
#12:


#18


Closeup of unknown #, 3 weeks and 1 day:


Cptn
 

badrabbit

New member
leggy bitches....

It's been frustrating ... I measured: Over 4.5 ft. of potential head room, so not surprising I have to bend an occasional stretcher, but this Kaze batch is ALL stretchers! I pulled out '#7' and measured her at about 5.5 ft ... from a seedling that was 7" or 8" when 12/12 began!

Ah well, I keep telling myself to be patient, my goal here is to identify a few candidates to go the next round of selection and the clones look very healthy and are popping a root here and there.

Here's the leg show ....

cheers,
rabbit
 

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badrabbit

New member
busted a move ...

OK, I couldn't stand it .... it was wearing on my brain.

I pulled the grow out of the closet, took the hydro table and lights apart, found another spot in the house that give me about 1 1/2 ft. more head room, blacked out the windows and moved the whole thing.

Lot's of work, but a big relief ... I'll have a much better chance of getting a decent output from this grow and judging the seedlings. Some of those plants were just not going to get any light in the overgrow room.

So ... happy day, Kaze is on it's way!

best,
rabbit
 

Cptn

Active member
Damn Rabbit!
Can't believe you are leaving me as the only headroom challenged active grow on the board :confused::rolleyes::p
Those girls were looking great in there too

Pics of the new space?
Are you gonna keep the old space for clones/males maybe?
How tall were they when you flipped 'em to 12/12 again?

I am going to clone my MK's soon.
I think some more are showing sex.
 

badrabbit

New member
Hey Cptn:

I'll get a pic today if I can.

I swear I really thought I flipped to 12/12 too early, the babies barely had 5 to 6 nodes and weren't more than 8" max.

I figured they'd be stretchy, so I made a point of going early ... but we've chatted about that already.

A couple in the back of the closet were really light deprived, so hopefully they'll grow out enough now to be at least .... I feel a lot better about it. I'm still not getting a strong distinctive smell but little 'rub tests' on some early bud reveals a really surprisingly fruity smell, not clearly lemon, but lighter side of the fruit spectrum for sure.

best,
rabbit
 

badrabbit

New member
Your Advice Please: Dump the grow?

I've never done this before in well over 10 yr.s or growing, but I think I'm going to dump this Kaze grow and save one plant.

They've been flowering for 5 weeks, and I've got an overgrown, stretchy group of hazey plants I didn't want, with ridiculously low yield, no pleasing aroma and a grow that's looking like a big waste of time.

Start with the fact that I ordered Mk/Sk, was sent the Kaze by mistake, grew it out anyway ... really looking for some indica leaners and boom, this is anything but.

I pulled them out of the grow room ... the first 2 photos give you the idea of the overall crap I've got, with a nice close up on a representative bud. The one plant I think I'll move to another room and finish, #3 is shown in the last. While it has stretched well over 6 ft tall, it at least has SOME decent bud structure (though they're fluffy and have no aroma at all)

I have clones of it all, but at this point, I think I'll finish #3 as a free-loader in another flower room and move on to a batch of Nordle I have waiting.

At 5 weeks of flower ... this isn't worth it.

I take my share of the blame ... the only haze hybrids I've ever grown were SSH and super lemon haze ... both were a breeze and had some great plants and smells and we're manageable. This one .. hey I'll take the shot, but I think it's time to cut my losses.

Agree? Tell me I'm wrong... please. Or validate my extreme call on this one please and thanks.

Commentary appreciated.

best,
rabbit
 

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cannatari

New member
Sorry to hear you're having a bad time with the Kaze, Badrabbit. IMO, Haze hybrids are just getting started at 5 weeks and is too early to make any conclusions about what you're working with. I say give 'em a chance. You might be surprised what can happen over the next 5 or 6 weeks. MK is no joke and Haze is no joke so there ought to be something pretty kick-ass happening with that union. Good luck with it.

Peace.
 

Cptn

Active member
I want to encourage you to finish what you started BR.
You already have 8 weeks invested here, it would be a BIG waste of time to bail when you only have another 5 weeks to go.

Hard to believe it, I know, but the best part of this grow is RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU.

This is a PEP TALK.
Is it working?
:D

Couple of things that might help:
  1. Slowly reduce light cycle to 11 hours over the next 2 weeks.
  2. Increase air circulation with another small fan. Keep those leaves moving.
  3. Put all your change and keys in your other pocket.
  4. Think about baseball.

At some point (now?) you might consider adding a high P/K bloom booster (not sure what the proper stage/time is to do that, I have a bit of time to figure it out for my grow.)

When you look at those wicked leaves, you know that medicine is gonna blow the top of your skull CLEAN OFF when it finally matures.
You will be grateful for the cerebral variety from the Mkaze when you finally get your heavy indica completed.

PS: have you tested some of the immature bud yet?
 

badrabbit

New member
save the kaze, save the kaze!

Alright, alright! Thanks for you input and great commentary, enjoyed that ... that's what I was looking for, some level-headed input.

(please ignore another half finished response if it appears ... I started writing a reply and it seems to have disappeared into the ether).

Anyway, you can see where my head was going ... didn't really intend to go with this strain and my express goal was to grow a NON haze hybrid this time around. So, I'm really having a hard time appreciating what's happening here. Sort of like your wife brings home a puppy you didn't want and, while it's awful cute, it poops on the floor ... next thought, get rid of the f'ing dog!

But good points all around ... I'll grow it out.

Elmer's right on ... a canopy had formed as a result of overgrowing the original space and there's some light starved plants in there. Hopefully, they'll do better.

I didn't mention it, but another 'problem' I found was that when I pulled out the group from the closet, I discovered a male in the back that had escaped my detection and looks like it let pollen go .... another thing I specifically did NOT want to do.

heavy sigh ... I'll march on though; we'll at least see where it ends up.

And you know .... maybe some Nordle could start in that now vacant closet space ... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

thanks again for your input MNS friends!
cheers,
rabbit
 
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