Searching old seeds for landrace genetics

In general I have found Cannabis seeds to be far more resilient than people tend to give them credit for. I use diluted H2O2 in water for germinating and people freak out over it. I sand, scrape and even chip or nick my old seeds and they freak out about it. I freeze my seeds in a standard freezer (frost free or not, does not seem to matter) and people freak. My seeds, some from as far back as 1975, according to all the "experts" out there in print and online, should be dead and never germinate. But amazingly they survive, year in and year out. The biggest enemies of Cannabis seeds are mainly heat and moisture.

Some things to point out about your methods, M InThe Dk: 85 deg. F is too warm. In general 78 deg F is about as high as you want to go for germinating and cloning Mj because otherwise you get too much bacteria and fungal growth at warmer temps. Of late I have been germinating at 70-75 deg. F and getting 100% rates in 3 days (albeit these are 1-3 year old seeds). I use far simpler methods as well. My H2O2 germinating solution is 1 cup 3% H2O2 per gallon of water. I also use that for wetting my paper towels for germination to prevent fungus and bacteria from killing the seeds early on. I also spray my seedlings with the same solution to prevent dampening off, and that has been 100% effective with over 200 seeds germinated in the last 2 years here. I used to have a big problem with dampening off. No longer with the H2O2 in the water.

For older seeds, I sand them ~lightly~ with emery paper. You do not have to sand the seed coat through to the germ. Only a few light scratches are needed to break through the varnish and resin that builds up as the oil has dried over the years. The resin gets harder the longer time that passes, and seeds will eventually become water tight. If the old seeds do not germinate after that, I use pliers to just 'pop' the seed case seam a fraction to open them enough for water to get in there and germinate them. If that does not work they are usually dead. You can also nick the seed case to do the same thing. It will not kill them if you do not crush the center. I had a few seeds last year that cracked open for some reason before harvest and I stored them in the refer here last winter. I germinated them as a test in January, and they all grew out. So my experience is that these guys are a lot tougher than people think.

Some old seeds will be weak and need help. I have changed my germinating methods so that I leave them in the wet paper towel until they are about a half inch to an inch long. Then I prep the soil for them to go into. I use a mix of fine sand and small size horticultural Perlite for seedlings now. I use the same mix for rooted cuttings of clones. No more peat moss or peat pots, as that tends to stay too wet and cause problems. Then I take the germinated seedlings and I tease off the seed caps if they are still on them. Old seeds may not be able to pop the seed hinge open. I use the closed end of a tweezers to punch a hole in the sand/Perl mix and place the seedlings in root tip down and cotyledon leaves up. Sometimes the roots are twisted and I have to tease them apart to get them oriented.

Then I put the planted seedlings under a cool CFL lamp a few inches above the soil level and leave them at 70-75 F. light on 24/7. The cotyledons turn green after only 12 hours of light. I spray them with the H2O2 water for at least a week until the true leaves form. After that I use a mix of H2O2 and sugar and a few drops of ag oil on them every 10 days to kill bugs and PM. When they are larger I start rotating with refined Neem oil spray at a rate of 100:1. The H2O2 sugar recipe is 1 cup granulated sugar, 1 cup 3% H2O2 and a few drops of ag oil spreader to a gallon of water. The sugar can be messy when dry, but the plants LOVE it. The leaves will absorb the sugar which will increase the BRIX of the plants as well. No need for high brix growing methods in my book. This bug/PM spray solution is organic and it is harmless to kids, pets, and most beneficials. It will kill all types and stages of mites on contact and generally prevent PM. Neem oil will do the same and also kill mite eggs on contact.
 
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BigSur, what does dampening off mean? I've backed the temperature down to about 76F.

I bought a new thermostat-controlled heat pad and and have been trying to get the germination environment dialed in and constant with regards to temperature and moisture. The paper towel is in a small tupperware container. I'm keeping the lid ajar because I think it's important that a bit of fresh air can get in to keep mold at bay. I've found this requires me to keep to a pretty strict schedule for adding solution at least once a day to the towel to keep it moist. Unfortunately, I've managed to dry out the paper towel a couple times in the past week so my expectations for this batch of seeds is now pretty low. I may try to rig up some sort of a wick/reservoir system to keep the moisture content of the paper towels constant.

There's definitely evidence of active germ plasm inside the seeds, and the process so far has at least awakened the seeds. But none have cracked on their own. This is what a lot of them look like after 12 days in the paper towel:

Seed_batch_1_day_12a.jpg


So yesterday when I was re-hydrating the paper towel I took a seed between my thumb and forefinger, oriented it so I was squeezing along the seam and not at the tips, and squeezed until I could feel the seed husk pop. This is what that seed looks like today:

Seed_batch_1_day_12.jpg


It may still require surgery to get the shell off and remove the embryonic sack, but it's making progress!

Emboldened by this success, and considering that none of the seeds have popped on their own and are unlikely to, I decided to intervene and manually crack the remaining seeds in this first batch. The trick is to split the seed right along the seam without crushing the innards. Using my newly acquired rubber-tipped forceps to grab the seed right along the seam halfway between the top and bottom, I carefully positioned my fingers between the forceps to restrict the amount of movement, and slowly squeezed with my other hand. When done properly, I was rewarded with a satisfying little audible and tactile "pop" as the seed case split open while the jaws of the forceps barely moved.

So now they are back in the paper towel, moist, and at a comfortable 76F.

Stay tuned.
 
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Damping off happens when an early seedling/sprout kind of just withers and dies for no reason even when water is present. In fact, it usually happens when too much water/humidity/heat is present. Ever plant a seed and the stem by the soil line dries out and dies while the top seems to be doing OK? That's damping off. Happens to the best of them, sometimes can't be avoided, happens out of nowhere. It's actually a disease I think.

Still hoping some of these find a way =D
 
Damping off happens when an early seedling/sprout kind of just withers and dies for no reason

No, damping-off is most relied to a fungus infestion of the substrate. Wouldn't worry about it too much, I got it with buying cheap coco. If you use a good quality soil you shouldn't have those kind of problems.

I wish you good luck on those beans, I think removing the seed-shells will maybe your only opinion to get some living plants out of it.

Have you tried Hormones yet?
 
Dampening off is due to fungi. Damping off typically occurs when old seed is planted in cold, wet soil and is further increased by poor soil drainage. Several types of fungi can attack and kill young seedlings of many types of plants. They will grow about 2 inches tall and then one day they bend over at the stem and croak. Nothing you can do will revive them after that happens. You can have the best soil out there and still be affected by dampening off (fungus). You can have over-watered soil or under-watered soil and you can get dampening off. Fungi spores are in the air and in the soil. It typically is more of an issue later in the year here in the PNW, when temps are warmer and there are more spores in the air, like in late spring. But I have had issues with it year round and in many types of plants.

I use plain sand and Perlite soil mix now for seedlings as it has better drainage and the media is not a feedstock for fungi. That's it... sand and Pelite. No coco puffs, no Eddy's special soil mix, no black gold soil, no Dr. Gonzo's you have to use this killer soil or your plants will suck soil. IME, !ANY! soil will work for growing weed. ANY soil. I have grown weed in everything from heavy clay to loose silt to pure sand. Its a weed. After I started using the H2O2 spray that I posted above on my germinated seedlings, I have lost ZERO seedlings in several HUNDREDS that I have germinated. If they germinate, they survive here now. No more dampening off. Once they root out in their 3 inch pots, I pot them up into gallons with a mix of organic and inorganic soil media that I make myself. Nothing special, typically its silty soil from my property, rotted leaves and chainsaw dust from a compost pile, some Perlite, some wood ash and crushed charcoal, and some earth worms to do the aeration. The organic stuff in my soil is mainly for feeding the worms. They do a great job.

As for the very slow growth in your seedlings... even my oldest frozen seeds from over 40 years ago will germinate in a matter of days and will have a half inch root in less than a week. More typically it all happens in about 3-4 days and into the sand/Perlite soil they go under a T-8 bulb with a spritz of H2O2 water once a day. You can add some sugar to water (maybe a TB per quart) and that will help with plant vigor pretty much at any stage. It will also feed fungi though. So you need the H2O2 with the sugar to stop that. There is also good fungus and bad fungus. I do not add any mycorrhizal fungi spores, nor do I believe that you need any. Plants will attract and feed fungi through their roots all on their own. There are... I dunno, maybe 500 different fungi in my soil here on my property? I have about 40 types of shrooms that grow/bloom here. Several boletus species, AKA Porcini. Most of them are edible.
 
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G `day BS

You have seeds in the freezer from the 1970s ?
Were they always in the freezer for 40 years ?

Thanks for sharin

EB .
 
just wanted to mention that if anyone gets damping off on a seedling that is important to them, and has access to a clone machine...
cut the stem just above the shriveled area on the seedling, dip in some rooting gel if you have some, and pop it in the machine.
the seedlings seem to reroot really fast, usually about a week until you have new root shoots coming off.
 
In my experience with dampening off with seedlings, which previously was a big problem for me here in the PNW, once the stem is infected, any attempt to save or clone it will fail. Typically the above bent stem section is so small from a seedling that trying to root it is useless. As is trying to get the stem to bud and shoot from the roots. There are no leaf nodes so you get no new shoots. Also they are typically so weak and small the cloning will not happen before they rot or croak.

Currently my seed germination method is to use a wet paper towel folded between two cottage cheese container lids. You can cut one lid at the edges so it fits into the other lid rail, or you can use a rubber band to keep them together. Keep the lids vertical and in a dark warm (70 F) place. With the H2O2 spray dampening off is now non existent for me, and I can handle seedlings as much as I want. I ran over 200 seeds this winter in one batch, and I had zero seedlings that germinated dampen off on me.

With larger plants that succumb to stem rot, I have cloned those with great success. Cut the stem above the rot and clone the branches as usual. I had this happen a few years ago with 'original' White Widow, and I got about 40 rooted clones from one stem rotted plant. I held that WW mother for 3 years, and my experience with her is the reason that I no longer save mothers for more than one year any more. They get woody, crowded, root bound, and stem rot becomes a problem. Far easier to clone them and size them up as they grow, and then clone them again.

Clonin' clonin' clonin',
Keep them joints a rollin', Rawhide!
 
well, there must be something you are doing wrong, because i can "clone" seedlings that have just started to wilt very easily.

i dont know what you are talking about when you say" as is trying to get the stem to bud and shoot from the roots" no leaf nodes so you get no new shoots....

you cut the stem above the shriveled section, and put it in the machine. simple
all you need is enough length to pass through the foam collar and have a little bit sticking out the bottom. 3/4 to 1" is enough.
from there, it is the exact same as any other seedling, it still has tiny leaves and will eventually grow and send out branches. ive done it multiple times, it really is not hard.
even better if you dont ever have to try because your seedlings stay healthy.
 
Agree with most that was said above. Used to mix streptomyces in soil prep to minimize soil fungal problems also as foliar for pm til it got too expensive. It is a great fungicide tho, still used albeit sparingly. Minimizing wet and cold is helpful. And neem at times can be effective here. I got rid of all the myco additives too after cost benefit analysis and realization most use shotgun approach by including mycos in product that are useless for the type of plants I grow. Coco caused a lot of problems too with pH and lockout problems. Products that purport to increase my yield by 5% or greater? Yeah right. Too many variables. KISS. Basically, straight aerated soil, worm castings, dechlorinated water, occasional teas with sugar, fulvic acid. Fully agree that H2o2 is indispensible in a variety of applications. I too use it in hatching seeds! Keep it clean!

Cool runnings
M
 
I was at a grow supply shop the other day here in Portland selling gobs of additives for Mj growing. Racks and racks of really EXPENSIVE bottles of potions. $100 for a pint of 3-2-6 fertilizer? WTF? Most were little more than weak fertilizers.

I do not grow organic any more, for several reasons. I grow biodynamic which is a mix of organic and standard commercial growing methods. Mainly because in horticulture class in college, the very FIRST thing they taught us was that plants take up nutrients the exact same way, regardless of source. Be they organic, inorganic, or synthetic. Its ALL ions, therefor it is ALL salts. Like it or not. I have debated this in many forums. The plants do not care, except when it comes to iron and phosphate uptake depending on soil pH (the second thing that they taught us). Proven over and over by many university studies. Yet these insanely expensive soil and fertilizers persist to fleece people of their money. Joes special soil formula, Ed's magic big bud fertilizer.

Oh well. It reminds me of the day that I want to Long's Drugs 30 some odd years ago and there on the shelf were three bottles of colored plant food. One was green, for all plants. The next was blue for indoor plants. The next was purple for Orchids and African violets. Ooooohh la la! I flipped them all over and they were the EXACT same blend. Only the food coloring was different. And the cost? Green was $1.99. Blue was $2.99. Purple was $3.99. Nothing has changed I guess?
 
well, there must be something you are doing wrong, because i can "clone" seedlings that have just started to wilt very easily.

i dont know what you are talking about when you say" as is trying to get the stem to bud and shoot from the roots" no leaf nodes so you get no new shoots....

you cut the stem above the shriveled section, and put it in the machine. simple
all you need is enough length to pass through the foam collar and have a little bit sticking out the bottom. 3/4 to 1" is enough.
from there, it is the exact same as any other seedling, it still has tiny leaves and will eventually grow and send out branches. ive done it multiple times, it really is not hard.
even better if you dont ever have to try because your seedlings stay healthy.


In general, seedlings are too small to clone in my experience. I clone from larger Cannabis plants with larger leaves and 1/8" thick stems or larger. In one of several of my own designed and built cloning "machines". In the seedlings that I have had that were hit with dampening off, they were maybe 1/32 of an inch in diameter with no true leaves yet. Also the bent sections tends to be near the leaves, leaving maybe 1/2 inch at best. As for my statement about no nodes, I was referring to the portion BELOW the fungal attacked sections that are attached to the roots. IN MY EXPERIENCE... dampening off only occurs before the true leaves fill out and thus they are not large enough to clone. I have tried... many times. I grow hundreds of clones and seedling here a year. I use and have tried all kinds of methods. If it works for you, great. I have not had any luck with cloning seedlings hit by DO. But that is a moot point now, as I have had zero issues with DO after I started using H2O2 spray on my seeds and seedlings. H2O2 also kills bugs and other diseases, particularly MITES and PM. Mites and PM are the big issues growing here in the PNW.
 
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i recived this great gift last year, sensi seeds from 2000 2002, reading this post make me wanna pop some to see how they perform, i will try firs the paper towel method, if i see they dont open then will try other ways, i put 5 shivashanti 2 silverhaze and 2 jacks, if they pop ill die of happines jajaja wish me luck

IMG_5458.JPG


i dont know if the bags match the names on paper, if they pop ill be looking to see if they are labeled correct...
 
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I was at a grow supply shop the other day here in Portland selling gobs of additives for Mj growing. Racks and racks of really EXPENSIVE bottles of potions. $100 for a pint of 3-2-6 fertilizer? WTF? Most were little more than weak fertilizers.

I do not grow organic any more, for several reasons. I grow biodynamic which is a mix of organic and standard commercial growing methods. Mainly because in horticulture class in college, the very FIRST thing they taught us was that plants take up nutrients the exact same way, regardless of source. Be they organic, inorganic, or synthetic. Its ALL ions, therefor it is ALL salts. Like it or not. I have debated this in many forums. The plants do not care, except when it comes to iron and phosphate uptake depending on soil pH (the second thing that they taught us). Proven over and over by many university studies. Yet these insanely expensive soil and fertilizers persist to fleece people of their money. Joes special soil formula, Ed's magic big bud fertilizer.

Oh well. It reminds me of the day that I want to Long's Drugs 30 some odd years ago and there on the shelf were three bottles of colored plant food. One was green, for all plants. The next was blue for indoor plants. The next was purple for Orchids and African violets. Ooooohh la la! I flipped them all over and they were the EXACT same blend. Only the food coloring was different. And the cost? Green was $1.99. Blue was $2.99. Purple was $3.99. Nothing has changed I guess?

Yep. Best college class taken was organic chemistry. Understanding differences is helpful. Full on organic can be tedious. Indoor calls for a compromise. Outdoors calls for utilization and simplicity in methods. This industry is so full of hype and guys who hold themselves out as genuises- selling they’re “special soils” and snake oil formulas to the unsuspecting. They are making bank after doing those pod casts haha. This is farming not brain surgery. It only becomes convoluted and difficult when we make it so.
Do your homework, stop listening to touts, KISS, and caveat emptor.
Oh, and be one step ahead of the lava haha!

Aloha
M
 
@btoks- good luck with your new found treasure. Hope it proves worthwhile for ya.

Shaka brah
M
 
i recived this great gift last year, sensi seeds from 2000 2002, reading this post make me wanna pop some to see how they perform, i will try firs the paper towel method, if i see they dont open then will try other ways, i put 5 shivashanti 2 silverhaze and 2 jacks, if they pop ill die of happines jajaja wish me luck

IMG_5458.JPG


i dont know if the bags match the names on paper, if they pop ill be looking to see if they are labeled correct...

Wow some seeds there, are they f2s or originals:)
 
@btoks- good luck with your new found treasure. Hope it proves worthwhile for ya.


Shaka brah
M
i hope so, if they pop ill do a nice selection for sure ;)

Wow some seeds there, are they f2s or originals:)

i dont know, a guy that makes seeds for banks give it to me, he know im a seed hoarder , he knew he never will used the and decide to present me, jejejej so i say hell yeah brah ;)
 
Oh, and be one step ahead of the lava haha!

Aloha
M

Hot flowing lava! Reminds me of an old saying. If you drop your keys into a pool of lava? They are like GONE dude. Same with "my precious!" cell phones. Do not try to recover them. Or you will be gone too, Brah.

Cool lava soils are good to grow weed in though. I am growing some Maui Waui this year to celebrate the lava flows. Ol' MrGreenJeanz genetics. I live on the slopes of a 2 million year old extinct Cascade volcano here. There are several other active strato volcanoes here within striking distance of me though. These have high silica in them, so they do not flow with bubbly lava like they do in Hawaii. They explode with heaps of scalding hot ash. The silica content makes all the difference between ooze and boom! Though Hawaiian volcanoes can also go BOOM! Kilauea will likely go BOOM! again, and very soon.
 
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