Fem seeds and there impact on the future of the species known as cannabis.

[DarwinsBulldog]

Wally,
Why is it you and others find it so hard to stay on topic? Do I need to remind you of the subject of the thread? Which conveniently, has nothing to do with what you've "been talking about" above. I suppose this is the point you tell me, Ive once again, misunderstood what you were writing? lol.

Check it out, the title of the thread is :
Fem seeds and there impact on the future of the species known as cannabis.

Now when you want to actually post something relevent to the discussion, by all means (as Ive said before) post away. I would love to hear what you have to say on the actual subject at hand. I dont care about your excuses for why Selfing is a tool, useful or not. What does that have to do with the industry of feminized seeds as it stands? Where these seeds (feminized) are sold to the public, and the demand is so great (based off false propaganda) that its become an increasingly more popular trend. You're talking apples (as usual) and Im talking oranges. So when you want to come to the right field, I think we're all waiting to see what you have to offer.

Why do I have a feeling the actual subject will purposely be taken off subject by you and your minions once again? What is it that you cats do not want the public to know, that you go through such lengths to completely hop, skip and jump over the true nature of the this thread? It happens in every feminized seed debate. Fem central must have you people by the balls lol! Is Gypsy going to stop selling your seeds if you dont attempt to justify what he, and others (your friends) are doing to the cannabis gene pool? Something which so many of you seem to care little a bout, the future of the plant. Which is what is truly important here, not your side tracked efforts to stiffle the topic of the thread with off topic remarks.

Focus Wally, I know you can do it! Focus!

Darwin,
Thanks for the remarks above, which basically demonstrate similar points which have been made already in this thread. The customers are being used, lead to believe the virtues of Feminized Seed by a propaganda campaign which is designed solely to take their money. And in the process, potentially having devestating effects on the future of the cannabis plant itself. Where years of selection, for and against specific traits, are being essentially washed away. Taking the plant backwards, instead of forwards (as hempys S1 plants demonstrate).

This thread isnt about my refusal to purchase these feminized seeds, its about what this feminized seed trend has on the future of the plant. Obviously being a newer member, who has not spent nearly any significant amount of time on these boards, you do not care that your fellow man is being taken advantage of. In fact you're mocking these people, who like yourself, are newer to this industry and are completely taken advantage of. So I wouldnt expect you to demonstate any kind of consideration for how these posters, who may be seeking seed for medical reasons (let that sink in a bit) are being used. Their money taken, and offered an inferior product to those who actually do have have a truly medicinal and elite line that would benefit them and their medical needs. You call them sheep, I call them victims of a misinformation campaign which could potentially have devestating effects in the future and as Shanti said, lead to a genetic crisis!

you can quantify my “apparent” experience and opinions all you like by counting my posts on this one forum... though it's a pretty useless effort. any idiot can type out 1000 comments, ever heard the saying “Speak less. Say more.”? Or what about “Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.”……?

the future of the plant is going to be how it will be whether or not there are SOME idiots out there working shitty lines and selling them for exorbitant prices… there’re still going to be the same amount of talented breeders, growers and other people who care for the genetics of the species as there are today still working with males, females and feminization practices. Even if poorly made and expensive beyond their quality femmed seeds were a threat to the genetic health of the cannabis species…how many breeders are buying shitty femmed seeds to use for their projects and then distribute to others? How many hobby growers buying these same seeds are even breeding with them (they’re buying femmed mainly because they want sinsemilla I’d think) let alone sharing them out to others… I’m chasing the breeder dream, and i see plenty of benefits of using both males and females and feminization for doing so… it’s easy to use or misuse either forms of matings in breeding. You can’t just keep pointing your bony witch fingers at feminized seeds as being the downfall of the cannabis species… it’s completely ignorant and just goes to show how little you or anyone else with this opinion understands genetics of biology. I don’t say that as a personal insult, simply as fact.

IBLs and any other form of inbreeding is not going to be beneficial to the genetic health of the cannabis species in the long run… creating S1 seeds or F2 onwards seeds is damaging from the view of the natural cannabis gene pool… it’d be like segregating an entire population into pairs and then inbreeding each pair… maybe occasionally crossing two inbred families then inbreeding again… this process of repeated inbreeding is for the benefit of breeders, growers, cannabis smokers etc NOT for the benefit of the cannabis species. This was never about the species’ genetic health, it was about what we wanted from it. if we wanted the healthiest genetics from the aspect of the cannabis species, everything would be breeding with one another with only natural selection and genetic drift affecting the genetics of the species. There’s still plenty of wild and landrace cannabis populations where this occurs, plenty of farmers and people in Africa, asia, himilayas etc still using their strains the same way as they did before the home growing craze from the 60-70s onwards.

Hempy’s S1 plants are evidence of nothing more than 18 bad plants that may have also happened to be S1s… when a real scientist with scientific understanding of how experiments and analysis of data are done, i’ll listen with interest. But one person, examining one strain, and only 18 seeds of the one strain without comparing it to anything else… is not enough at all to be able to draw such huge conclusions that you have done. It just reinforces how little either of you understand about scientific method…

Both of you have been told and had things explained to you about fem seeds again and again from what I’ve heard and taken part in myself… it’s time to shut up and listen to those who have the experience, understanding and knowledge to back up their arguments. People like Tom Hill and Wally have given more than enough of their time to explain to you people again and again about these things, you all nod and smile but don’t listen or take anything on board because like fundamentalist religious people you’re not open to reason or new evidence, closed minded I believe is the term. “A wise man changes his mind, a fool never”.

You may be right about people being used by these corporations and suffering misinformation to make them richer, however the ignorant hatred of feminization and continued spreading of bullshit propaganda and FURTHER MISINFORMATION isn’t the way to go about trying to fight it, it just spreads more lies and you make those who are being used too afraid of using the product at all, which in a lot of cases still is of great quality. THIS IS VERY SELFISH AND NOT IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THESE PEOPLE YOU SAY ARE BEING USED AND LIED TO BY THESE COMPANIES OR IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE CANNABIS SPECIES… THIS IS ABOUT YOU PEOPLE AND YOUR EGOS… it’s like blind faith and religion… you’re perpetuating your fears and bullshit lies because you’re too afraid to really face the real issue and work through the problem, it’s easier to just believe lies and have the rest of the world follow in suit without working your arse off to get to the real truth of it all. You’re simply chasing a quick fix and in the end won’t change anything at all.

You need to use further education and explanation to the people who are being used by these companies etc so they can make their choices more wisely in the future, not just spread fear and lies in an attempt to correct other lies. Anyone who is going to buy or spend any amount of money on these seeds owes it to themselves to do proper research before hand, responsibility lies on them and them alone at the end of the day, i’m a compassionate person and don’t like seeing anyone being taken advantage of in any way, but if you’re too slack to really look into a product you’re spending money on how can you point the finger anywhere but at yourself? The power isn’t in these companies or their products, even if they’re lying and have shit products, the power lies in the hands of consumers with the money to spend. They just need to care more about being educated on the product they’re buying.

i'm not ignoring you Brock, i'll reply later when i have time to read your comment thoroughly mate.

 

[JessE]

Dont let it hit you in the ass on your way out

Hempy’s S1 plants are evidence of nothing .

Hempys S1 plants are evidence that you yourself were looking for, only when it turns out not to be as you were hoping, you discount it. Humorous, and quite convenient I might add.

http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/showpost.php?p=59198&postcount=193

Hempy has demonstrated what S1 plants will do, compared to their original F1 counter parts offered by reputable breeders. Even his F2 lines made the S1s pale in comparison. Further more, he used more seeds than most would acquire from a shops such as Gypsy Nirvana and was able to show their detriments. Now with others paying big money for these Fem seeds, but getting less seeds than what Hempy used, what hope do these people have? Thats reality hitting you in the face Darwin.

Originally posted by Darwinsbulldog
it’s time to shut up and listen to those who have the experience,

Translation: This thread is definitely making those who are taking advantage of the community, medical and recreational, feel the heat. Please stop, because this will hurt our pockets lol.

I do listen to those who have experience, Shantibaba chiefly. Who is far and away more qualified than any of your demi-gods. Shanti not good enough for you?

Let me show you the door:

http://www.icmag.com/modules/Jig/index.php

 

[DarwinsBulldog]

Hempys S1 plants are evidence that you yourself were looking for, only when it turns out not to be as you were hoping, you discount it. Humorous, and quite convenient I might add.

http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/showpost.php?p=59198&postcount=193

Hempy has demonstrated what S1 plants will do, compared to their original F1 counter parts offered by reputable breeders. Even his F2 lines made the S1s pale in comparison. Further more, he used more seeds than most would acquire from a shops such as Gypsy Nirvana and was able to show their detriments. Now with others paying big money for these Fem seeds, but getting less seeds than what Hempy used, what hope do these people have? Thats reality hitting you in the face Darwin.




Translation: This thread is definitely making those who are taking advantage of the community, medical and recreational, feel the heat. Please stop, because this will hurt our pockets lol.

I do listen to those who have experience, Shantibaba chiefly. Who is far and away more qualified than any of your demi-gods. Shanti not good enough for you?

Let me show you the door:

http://www.icmag.com/modules/Jig/index.php

you're pissing in the wind jesse...

you just keep missing the point dude... i don't know how many times i'm going to have to explain experimental theory to you... hempy's experiment is no where near thorough or sufficient enough to be able to state "Hempy has demonstrated what S1 plants will do"... if you are just not going to get that there's no point in me continuously trying to explain why. this will be the last attempt, he did one experiment, with one replicate, and only 18 samples... it was on one strain (his own...) of unknown heterozygosity and F coefficient (these tell us the degree of inbreeding that has already occurred to the strain). the strain may have already been inbred heavily, or it may have been one of the most genetically diverse strains in the world... we don't know, if it was either one of these, this would affect the interpretation of the results! the same with only comparing it to a small set of F1s as his "control"... one replicate is no where near enough for you to be able to draw conclusions, if it's not repeatable or repeated in the experiment, then any other factor may be attributed to having caused the loss in vigour. perhaps something he did or used while growing those 18 if they were done at a different time, different place, using different tools or practices etc while raising those.. he will have compared them to F1s that were grown in a diff environment (ie. different season even if in the same grow room), they will have had different everything... by not controlling for these factors scientifically speaking YOU CAN NOT COMPARE THE S1s TO THE F1s! you would have had to have grown those F1s out with the S1s in exactly the same environment, same time, randomly positioned under lighting, same exact soil, water, everything, THEN you could've controlled for those other variables, and THEN you'd be right to compare the S1s and F1s. by not doing this he hasn't controlled for these factors, so anything caught have caused one or even all 18 of his plants to show loss in vigour.

i have the utmost respect for shanti and nevllie. but i also do for people like tom hill and wally... i used to be in the same boat as you, when i first got into this "hobby" (for want of a better word) straight off the bat i was thrown at fem seeds, and straight off the bat i was met with people like you on these forums spinning bullshit and initially i got sucked in. it was only after doing my own research, hours and hours of reading, discussing and debating with these people that i came to form my own educated opinion on this topic and realised how wrong i was initially. anyone else owes it to themselves to do the same thing. you shouldn't just follow blindly without wanting to know everything... with all due respect to shanti, he is but one man, he may have huge experience and knowledge about this plant, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he is right about all of his opinions, the same goes for me, or for any of us. so to blindly follow others without doing the proper research yourself is never wise... if you're unwilling to learn and can never respect when you've made a mistake, what's the point to all of this?

it was never about shanti not being good enough for me mate... i'd just rather put my "faith" in myself and my own understanding, research and knowledge than just blindly follow what someone else has said. you owe it to yourself and to your mentors like shanti to educate yourself on the real goings on behind what you believe my friend.

 

[JessE]

i used to be in the same boat as you

lol

You're now my superior? When did this occur? lol

you can quantify my “apparent” experience and opinions all you like by counting my posts on this one forum...

Or I could look at the fact Ive did this for nearly a decade, and have spent quite a bit of time doing so at that, (longer than most of your demi-gods I might add) while you were most likely still in middle school. The number of post on a forum mean nothing. Your experience, or lack there of I might add is apparent by not only your postings, but the fact Ive never heard of you. You show up at Icmag, spit some dumb ass comments out and brown nose with the boys and apparently feel you're some kind of expert. Ive got news for you kid, you've been getting your ass handed to you this entire thread. And it isnt going to get any better for you either.

Originally posted by Darwinsbulldog
I’m chasing the breeder dream

God help us all!

Both of you have been told and had things explained to you about fem seeds again and again from what I’ve heard and taken part in myself…

lol

You seem to have a high opinion of yourself, Ive watched you mentioned your 6 years of University experience a few times now. It must be frustrating that Im not nearly as impressed with this as you seem to be. For someone with so much education, your postings leave more usable holes than a tijuana whore. And perhaps I shouldnt get into how you write, because its nothing like a University level student would write here in the states. I would be asking for a refund if I was you lol.

it’s easier to just believe lies and have the rest of the world follow in suit without working your arse off to get to the real truth of it all.

Lies huh?

The power isn’t in these companies or their products, even if they’re lying and have shit products, the power lies in the hands of consumers with the money to spend. They just need to care more about being educated on the product they’re buying.
.

So I (and others) are lieing, but then you go on to mention how the public indeed needs to be more educated on what they are buying? Chiefly Feminized seeds! Which is the topic of this thread, and what Ive been going on about over and over again.

Remember what I said about those usable holes?

 

[englishrick]

omg...a mate of mine just made this an sent it too me,,,wow,,,,,

this is amazing,,

this is allmost an exact depiction of the truth...thankyou thankyou thankyou

underneath that mask could be the best scientist in the world EVER,,look at how he still gets his point across,,,[but without dominating his felow man an without the brasen imatureity of "image" ,,,"im to cool for school" sounds like his moto

amazing

THE BELOW POST HAS BEEN MODIFIED FROM ITS ORIGINAL STATE

fem seed camp / uni grad camp

Reg seed sales supporter.

 

[JessE]

omg...a mate of mine just made this an sent it too me,,,wow,,,,,

this is amazing,,

this is allmost an exact depiction of the truth...thankyou thankyou thankyou

underneath that mask could be the best scientist in the world EVER,,look at how he still gets his point across,,,[but without dominating his felow man an without the brasen imatureity of "image" ,,,"im to cool for school" sounds like his moto

amazing

Remember what I said about this thread getting off topic Rick? Let me remind you and everyone else. Because Im not surprised you're once again posting something of this nature. (see bold)

I have been talking about researching your genetics prior to making hybrids with males x female.

Wally,
Why is it you and others find it so hard to stay on topic? Do I need to remind you of the subject of the thread? Which conveniently, has nothing to do with what you've "been talking about" above. I suppose this is the point you tell me, Ive once again, misunderstood what you were writing? lol.

Check it out, the title of the thread is :
Fem seeds and there impact on the future of the species known as cannabis.

Now when you want to actually post something relevent to the discussion, by all means (as Ive said before) post away. I would love to hear what you have to say on the actual subject at hand. I dont care about your excuses for why Selfing is a tool, useful or not. What does that have to do with the industry of feminized seeds as it stands? Where these seeds (feminized) are sold to the public, and the demand is so great (based off false propaganda) that its become an increasingly more popular trend. You're talking apples (as usual) and Im talking oranges. So when you want to come to the right field, I think we're all waiting to see what you have to offer.

Why do I have a feeling the actual subject will purposely be taken off subject by you and your minions once again? What is it that you cats do not want the public to know, that you go through such lengths to completely hop, skip and jump over the true nature of the this thread? It happens in every feminized seed debate. Fem central must have you people by the balls lol! Is Gypsy going to stop selling your seeds if you dont attempt to justify what he, and others (your friends) are doing to the cannabis gene pool? Something which so many of you seem to care little a bout, the future of the plant. Which is what is truly important here, not your side tracked efforts to stiffle the topic of the thread with off topic remarks.

Focus Wally, I know you can do it! Focus!

Originally posted by DarwinsBulldog

if you're worried about femmed seeds, and don't want to pay more for them, there's a simple answer... DON"T BUY THEM! 90% of seeds out there if not more will be produced in regular form as well... you have the RIGHT not to pay more for femmed seeds, but if you decide to you will have less time (wasted - for some anyway) weeding out males. and the process does require more work and time and money (though not as much as they decide to charge for them i agree). but at the end of the day it's up to the consumer, no one has a gun at their heads. if there was no demand, there'd be no supply. if there was no sheep running about, there'd be no wolves there to hunt them down.

Darwin,
Thanks for the remarks above, which basically demonstrate similar points which have been made already in this thread. The customers are being used, lead to believe the virtues of Feminized Seed by a propaganda campaign which is designed solely to take their money. And in the process, potentially having devestating effects on the future of the cannabis plant itself. Where years of selection, for and against specific traits, are being essentially washed away. Taking the plant backwards, instead of forwards (as hempys S1 plants demonstrate).

This thread isnt about my refusal to purchase these feminized seeds, its about what this feminized seed trend has on the future of the plant. Obviously being a newer member, who has not spent nearly any significant amount of time on these boards, you do not care that your fellow man is being taken advantage of. In fact you're mocking these people, who like yourself, are newer to this industry and are completely taken advantage of. So I wouldnt expect you to demonstate any kind of consideration for how these posters, who may be seeking seed for medical reasons (let that sink in a bit) are being used. Their money taken, and offered an inferior product to those who actually do have have a truly medicinal and elite line that would benefit them and their medical needs. You call them sheep, I call them victims of a misinformation campaign which could potentially have devestating effects in the future and as Shanti said, lead to a genetic crisis!

 

[englishrick]

im not the 1 with the channel5 porn,,or the startrek pictures,,

its a quote,,

 

[JessE]

Hi Englishrick,
Ive always thought you had an interesting posting style, which Ive always took as an attempt to cover up your syntax. Perhaps not a bad idea, considering the nature of these forums? The only reason I bring this up is because in the past, certain posters have attempted to foil similar discussions by the use of fake alias's and such, such as British Hempires role in Stoner-Gate. Which is a term coined to describe a situation that happened at Icmag where troll handles were, and are, being used in an attempt to stiffle legitimate discussion on the topic of the dangers the feminized seed trend presents to the overall cannabis pool.

And as we all know, Gypsy Nirvana stands to make a great deal of money by selling seeds across the globe, and with Icmag being his website, Ive always found it interesting how often these discussions are purposely taken off subject by trolls, who are attempting to avoid the real truth on the subject, which of course assures the general public will avoid being truly informed on the issue and which will ultimately result in not only the continuation of this unfortunate process, but also continuing to bring big money into Gypsy Nirvana's pockets as the Feminized seed industry is one which is often misunderstood, yet highly popular among the general public.

A quite troubling scenario.

Especially in light of the fact a direct correlation can and has been demonstrated between the Elite Clone hype and Gypsy Nirvana's Icmag, and as we know many people have been lead down the path of purchasing feminized or S1 seed due to the desire to obtain lines said to be of an Elite nature, though obtainable in clone form only. Of course, the option to obtain these lines in S1 is available to those unable, or unwilling to obtain these elite lines by any other means other than going through a world wide, well known distributor, such as the aforementioned Gypsy Nirvana.

A convenient marketing strategy, and when one looks at how often these discussions are taken off subject, purposely, and how often these threads are closed at Icmag once information is presented which poses a threat to said seed sales, a disturbing trend emerges in which its clear there are those who do not want the truth about the dangers of the feminized seed process to be well known. And often when these these tactics of taken the thread out of the realm of public perception fail to achieve their desired effect, there is another interesting trend of simply bumping the thread forward, often times with off topic remarks, in an effort to take the focus off the truly important information and bump the thread que to an ultimately mundane position.

Thats not to say you're purpose is to take this thread off topic either, though you have posted questions meant to answer already standing questions (unfortunate) as well as having posted some questionable posts already (such as a list of definitions which seemingly came out of left field).

 

[hempy]

you can quantify my “apparent” experience and opinions all you like by counting my posts on this one forum... though it's a pretty useless effort. any idiot can type out 1000 comments, ever heard the saying “Speak less. Say more.”? Or what about “Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.”……?

the future of the plant is going to be how it will be whether or not there are SOME idiots out there working shitty lines and selling them for exorbitant prices… there’re still going to be the same amount of talented breeders, growers and other people who care for the genetics of the species as there are today still working with males, females and feminization practices. Even if poorly made and expensive beyond their quality femmed seeds were a threat to the genetic health of the cannabis species…how many breeders are buying shitty femmed seeds to use for their projects and then distribute to others? How many hobby growers buying these same seeds are even breeding with them (they’re buying femmed mainly because they want sinsemilla I’d think) let alone sharing them out to others… I’m chasing the breeder dream, and i see plenty of benefits of using both males and females and feminization for doing so… it’s easy to use or misuse either forms of matings in breeding. You can’t just keep pointing your bony witch fingers at feminized seeds as being the downfall of the cannabis species… it’s completely ignorant and just goes to show how little you or anyone else with this opinion understands genetics of biology. I don’t say that as a personal insult, simply as fact.

People like you are the future like it or not and the first thing you lot need to wake up to is you dont know it all or ever will know it all being humble and putting your self on a level playing field even if you have a diffrent vue to others is from were i stand a quolity you younger people dont have lots of.

Do you have any understanding of how much is all ready gone in the genetic pool of cannabis you dont becouse your to young to have even a clue not being nasty but being honest and up front.

IBLs and any other form of inbreeding is not going to be beneficial to the genetic health of the cannabis species in the long run… creating S1 seeds or F2 onwards seeds is damaging from the view of the natural cannabis gene pool… it’d be like segregating an entire population into pairs and then inbreeding each pair… maybe occasionally crossing two inbred families then inbreeding again… this process of repeated inbreeding is for the benefit of breeders, growers, cannabis smokers etc NOT for the benefit of the cannabis species. This was never about the species’ genetic health, it was about what we wanted from it. if we wanted the healthiest genetics from the aspect of the cannabis species, everything would be breeding with one another with only natural selection and genetic drift affecting the genetics of the species. There’s still plenty of wild and landrace cannabis populations where this occurs, plenty of farmers and people in Africa, asia, himilayas etc still using their strains the same way as they did before the home growing craze from the 60-70s onwards.

You have not grown a pure line that has been inbreed have you to even know what it means to grow a true breeding line i have we took them for granted as most did back then yet inbreeding cannabis has been done by many growers some lines inbreed 30 or 40 years and longer yet show no loss of vigor yet the s1 did in the first generation why.

I think you need to pull your head out of the books and go start growing before you start to act like you know it all about cannabis.

Yes we grew them before you were born were do you think we got ow seeds from in the 70s amsterdam think agine but the diffrence now is places like asia and so on have had lots of there cannabis iraticated by the Goverments go read up on it educate your self.

You think you can walk into thiland and find the quolity thia that was grown there in the 70s dream on.

Hempy’s S1 plants are evidence of nothing more than 18 bad plants that may have also happened to be S1s… when a real scientist with scientific understanding of how experiments and analysis of data are done, i’ll listen with interest. But one person, examining one strain, and only 18 seeds of the one strain without comparing it to anything else… is not enough at all to be able to draw such huge conclusions that you have done. It just reinforces how little either of you understand about scientific method…

I really dont like your smart ass know it all attatude DarwinsBulldog how many plants you grown and how many years have you in fact grown and been growing for becouse your sure full of wisdom .

Weres your proof or efferts ? I did more here than you and all your little fem mates have done.

No offence but the s1 seed speek valume unlike you they are fucken stunted not even close to there genetic potentioal of the f1 or f2s you cant explane why yet i belive i can its becouse they had no male in the union the male you know the genetic partner to the female that repairs mutations and keeps it healthy.

Both of you have been told and had things explained to you about fem seeds again and again from what I’ve heard and taken part in myself… it’s time to shut up and listen to those who have the experience, understanding and knowledge to back up their arguments. People like Tom Hill and Wally have given more than enough of their time to explain to you people again and again about these things, you all nod and smile but don’t listen or take anything on board because like fundamentalist religious people you’re not open to reason or new evidence, closed minded I believe is the term. “A wise man changes his mind, a fool never”.

NO what i and every other person on the boards have had pushed down ow throats DarwinsBulldog are thearitic opinons that scientists them selfs are still debating and changeing as more understanding comes to lite on just how complex plant understandings are more understood.

Tom and wally rick and sam and lets not forget hooserbuddy ha no thanks i lisen to people like Neville and shanti .

You may be right about people being used by these corporations and suffering misinformation to make them richer, however the ignorant hatred of feminization and continued spreading of bullshit propaganda and FURTHER MISINFORMATION isn’t the way to go about trying to fight it, it just spreads more lies and you make those who are being used too afraid of using the product at all, which in a lot of cases still is of great quality. THIS IS VERY SELFISH AND NOT IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THESE PEOPLE YOU SAY ARE BEING USED AND LIED TO BY THESE COMPANIES OR IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE CANNABIS SPECIES… THIS IS ABOUT YOU PEOPLE AND YOUR EGOS… it’s like blind faith and religion… you’re perpetuating your fears and bullshit lies because you’re too afraid to really face the real issue and work through the problem, it’s easier to just believe lies and have the rest of the world follow in suit without working your arse off to get to the real truth of it all. You’re simply chasing a quick fix and in the end won’t change anything at all.

You need to use further education and explanation to the people who are being used by these companies etc so they can make their choices more wisely in the future, not just spread fear and lies in an attempt to correct other lies. Anyone who is going to buy or spend any amount of money on these seeds owes it to themselves to do proper research before hand, responsibility lies on them and them alone at the end of the day, i’m a compassionate person and don’t like seeing anyone being taken advantage of in any way, but if you’re too slack to really look into a product you’re spending money on how can you point the finger anywhere but at yourself? The power isn’t in these companies or their products, even if they’re lying and have shit products, the power lies in the hands of consumers with the money to spend. They just need to care more about being educated on the product they’re buying.

i'm not ignoring you Brock, i'll reply later when i have time to read your comment thoroughly mate.

Not intrested in replieing to any more of this im high you have now officaly pist me off .

Way to go fellas you have no explenation to why the s1 grew like midgets yet f1 f2s grew the same thank god im not growing seeds made by you lot.

The thias been inbreed six times since 1978 and i would say many many times before that indoors it grows like a tree last time these seeds were grown out 1 plant produced over 10 pound yep i should throw them in the bin becouse there genetics are trashed now.

 

[DarwinsBulldog]

Hey brock1,

From what i understand dioecy evolved from monoecy yes, so today’s cannabis species have an ancestor which was monoecious yes. though hemp is effectively the same species as cannabis sativa, though it may be considered a diff subspecies by some. Classification hasn’t really be done thoroughly yet though. It has just had psychoactive chemicals bred out of it, and it’s breeding has been focused on fiber content.

Cannabis would have been dioecious much the same as it is today when the first humans domesticated the plant. It’s monoecious ancestor is most likely many millions of years old. A close relative of cannabis, Humulus lupulus L. (or Hops used in beer etc, is in the same family, cannabinacae) is dioecious too, and cannabis and humulus split more than 1.29 million years ago from what I was reading on humulus recently. Way before present people in other words…

They can’t have bred what we use today as sinsemilla without seeds… they still required production of pollen whether from male or reversed female to pollinate their favourite plants used for sinsemilla production to select for better plants etc. they still require each and every plant that is used for sinsemilla to be able to produce seeds and/or pollen… or selective breeding couldn’t occur. Cloning would be the only other way to propagate the plant and with no recombination or chromosomes/DNA there’d be no variation in the offspring (ie. they’d all be copies of the mum) and thus no selection could occur to affect the resultant individuals, for better or worse.

The issue you guys have with loss of vigour isn’t the fact that they are S1 seeds… this is what I want to get across more importantly than anything. The main issue with loss of vigour or other poor qualities from these matings is because your lines are HEAVILY inbred. This can occur through indreeding using several individuals as much as it can by using 1 individual…. The loss in vigour is mutant alleles doubling up and being expressed (offspring become homozygous for this allele – they have two of these alleles, one from mum one from dad/mum). This occurs if you mate siblings that had a parent with 1 of these recessive mutant alleles, it will double up in ¼ of the resulting offspring and be expressed (according to mendel’s genetic theory). This can happen too if you use a single plant to pollinate itself, because ½ the pollen will have the mutant allele, half wont, half the ovules will have it and half won’t, by laws of probability, ¼ of the offspring will have 2 of the mutant alleles and thus express the trait, such as loss in vigour. This is able to occur in very short periods when inbreeding is occurring whether it’s selfing, cross pollinating, or using male and females…. It’s the level of inbreeding that is the important factor here, not how the inbreeding was down!

To avoid mutant alleles doubling up and being expressed in populations you have to keep the heterozygosity and F-value up so that the amount of inbreeding is low and the population doesn’t have as many of these mutant alleles doubling up and being expressed. BUT the good thing about inbreeding and having plants show up with both mutant alleles, is being able to cull them and remove these alleles from the gene pool for good. Like I stated before in the case of the Mauritius kestrel, inbreeding depression/founder affect occurred with only 4-5 individuals mating and producing offspring, heavily inbred, initially they had a poor rate of survival with offspring due to mutant alleles, but soon those had been selected out (they died) and with them went the alleles and now the population is back in the 1000s.

The act of selfing, cross pollinating or M/F breeding are all as likely to result in good or bad offspring as the other… it’s the genetic stock you’re using initially, chosen by the breeder, which will decide the quality of the offspring, THE PROCESS CAN NOT BE BLAMED.

To jesse and hempy - As with hempy’s experiment, he created S1 from one plant and with the same mum made F1s… the same proportion of loss in vigour he found in the S1s according to genetic theory should be found in his F2s… each of the F1 siblings would have a 50% chance of having a copy of any mutant allele that mum had that she gave to her S1 offspring. So once they the F1 siblings were mated with each other they’d produce F2 offspring that should have the same amount of loss in vigour (or mutant alleles doubled up) as the S1. THIS IS THE IMPARTIAL MATHS OF GENETICS. You’re perfectly fine with F2 seeds created with males and females mating… but S1s you have this irrational fear of when on paper they have exactly the same stats as those F2 seeds. Do I need to explain myself any better without having to draw simple diagrams? In the end it’s up to you the breeder to control your inbreeding levels and genetic health of your strains, you will have the same issues whether you self, cross pollinate or F/M mate…. There’s no difference at all, you will just run into the same inbreeding issues one step quicker when selfing…

Anyway I hope that helped brock, if you’ve other questions feel free to ask or pm me mate.

 

[hempy]

To jesse and hempy - As with hempy’s experiment, he created S1 from one plant and with the same mum made F1s… the same proportion of loss in vigour he found in the S1s according to genetic theory should be found in his F2s… each of the F1 siblings would have a 50% chance of having a copy of any mutant allele that mum had that she gave to her S1 offspring. So once they the F1 siblings were mated with each other they’d produce F2 offspring that should have the same amount of loss in vigour (or mutant alleles doubled up) as the S1. THIS IS THE IMPARTIAL MATHS OF GENETICS. You’re perfectly fine with F2 seeds created with males and females mating… but S1s you have this irrational fear of when on paper they have exactly the same stats as those F2 seeds. Do I need to explain myself any better without having to draw simple diagrams? In the end it’s up to you the breeder to control your inbreeding levels and genetic health of your strains, you will have the same issues whether you self, cross pollinate or F/M mate…. There’s no difference at all, you will just run into the same inbreeding issues one step quicker when selfing…

In theary i should look like black text in real life and thats as far from the truth you fem supporters are.

 

[englishrick]

jess,,,im not covering anything up bro,,,,im being propper cool,,,honestly man,,,if you knew me or spent any time with me you would relize my hart is pure,,,,

trust me ,,,"the inocent will cast the first stone",,,

have you ever thought that maybe the bigheads didnt want you to undersatnd feminization and its possible possitive aplication?

my beeding is done indoors,,,i never let anything out of my biohazzard area,,,,,im not pollouting any genepool!!!!!!!!!!!!!,,,i am not pollouting any gene pool,,,,

i am conducting experiments and i need fellow scientist to help,,,,please help,,,,forget the public for a min,,,we need to do some testing between us,,,,we are not the public,,,,anyone here whos talking now is involved in experimentation to evaluate problems and possible soloutions,,,,

ok,,,so maybe fems are evil [according to your stance]....but you need "us" [the peeps who are experimenting] to tell you they are bad,,,,il be honest,,,if i see any problems with the experiments il tell you, "stay the fuk away from this",,,,ya know what im sayin bro

so far,,, the experiments show some possitive aplication,,,please listen to us

 

[DarwinsBulldog]

lol

You're now my superior? When did this occur? lol


Or I could look at the fact Ive did this for nearly a decade, and have spent quite a bit of time doing so at that, (longer than most of your demi-gods I might add) while you were most likely still in middle school. The number of post on a forum mean nothing. Your experience, or lack there of I might add is apparent by not only your postings, but the fact Ive never heard of you. You show up at Icmag, spit some dumb ass comments out and brown nose with the boys and apparently feel you're some kind of expert. Ive got news for you kid, you've been getting your ass handed to you this entire thread. And it isnt going to get any better for you either.



God help us all!



lol

You seem to have a high opinion of yourself, Ive watched you mentioned your 6 years of University experience a few times now. It must be frustrating that Im not nearly as impressed with this as you seem to be. For someone with so much education, your postings leave more usable holes than a tijuana whore. And perhaps I shouldnt get into how you write, because its nothing like a University level student would write here in the states. I would be asking for a refund if I was you lol.



Lies huh?

So I (and others) are lieing, but then you go on to mention how the public indeed needs to be more educated on what they are buying? Chiefly Feminized seeds! Which is the topic of this thread, and what Ive been going on about over and over again.

Remember what I said about those usable holes?

Make this as personal as you like mate you’re just avoiding the real topic and are yet to really counter any proper arguments I’ve made at all… just stuck to the small snide sarcastic remarks and pay outs you think somehow helps justifies your opinion and stance.

Are we reading the same thread? Because I said I was in the same boat as you with respect to not liking fem seeds that somehow was me suggesting I was your surperior? what the hell does that point have to do with anything at all dude? “lol lol lol lol”…

Haha wow mate, you’ve made it so clear to me going to uni for many years and putting my money time and effort into increasing my knowledge and understanding of things was definitely a waste of time… if only I’d spent those years just growing at home in my closet, then maybe I’d have close to 10 yrs experience like your amazingly qualified self and would be able to stand on equal ground with the incredibly experienced intellect that you are and debate… give me a break. The African farmer who’s 70 yrs old can’t read or write and has never left his village but has farmed cannabis all his life has more right to comment on the genetic health of offspring resulting from different mating regimes in this species than you and I both does it? years under your belt mean nothing mate… just because you can grow the plant doesn’t mean you have any deeper understanding of its genetics or biology than the next door neighbour HERO. Lol you’ve got news for me kid? Give me a break old man… you’ve made a total fool of yourself this entire thread and continue to do so every time you respond to any of my comments avoiding all sensible components of our discussion and simply fall back on petty pay outs and laughing at your own sarcastic remarks. Good job.

I seem to have a high opinion of myself?? Ha… my ego’s in place mate, is yours?

It just goes to show how quickly the young can overtake the old and “wise” when they decide to do their own research and read up on a subject… it appears I’ve learnt more in 6 months than you have in 10 years on this topic mate. I’m not frustrated at all that you spit at my education and experience with respect to biology and genetics, go for it all you like… I just feel embarrassed on your part. I don’t mention it to boast or brag… I have simply stated it a few times to show you that I may have more of an understanding of this topic than your random forum member. This isn’t about comparing dick sizes old man, let’s stay on topic and cut out the cheap calls and insults?

 

[englishrick]

thats right,,,i feel like my education is getting spit on sometimes,,it actualy hurts when it happens from guys i like,,

when you get your masters darwin,, il care

sorry for asking this but im genuinly intrigued,,hempy/jess/nev/.,,what degrees and qualification do you guys have?,,,darwin allmost has a masters

 

[DarwinsBulldog]

Hempy it’s time to lose the old man attitude, I respect that you have many more years growing experience than most of us on here… but age doesn’t always correlate with wisdom or understanding mate. I’m not being purposefully rude, but you older generations need to realise that we younger lot catch up to you and over take you pretty quick with respect to everything but hours put into the job (most of the time).

You’ve stated “You have not grown a pure line that has been inbreed have you to even know what it means to grow a true breeding line i have we took them for granted as most did back then yet inbreeding cannabis has been done by many growers some lines inbreed 30 or 40 years and longer yet show no loss of vigor yet the s1 did in the first generation why.”

Then what is it hempy? If it’s not the level of inbreeding that’s causing loss of vigour then what is it? why on earth would “all” S1 seeds be dodgy because of selfing (inbreeding) all showing loss in vigour, all being inferior, and yet you can inbreed a line for 30-40 yrs and it be fine? What’s your explanation then?

You tell me to pull my head out of the books and start growing, mate I’ve been doing both at once… growing can only occur so fast and on such a scale, but I’ve had my head in the books every day I’ve been growing (LITERALLY) so maybe it’s about time you learned to read again and dusted off the cannabis breeding books you say you have and give them another read. Experience in how to grow the plant will no help me understand any better the complexities of the genetics behind it, if I rely on that alone and don’t follow it up with literature and theory.

It’s not a smart arse attitude mate… I’m just telling you you’re wrong, I don’t gain pleasure from this, I’m not on here to just fight to get a laugh like some… I’m actually trying to help explain to you why you are wrong in this case, but you won’t listen at all! This isn’t about comparing dick lengths mate, even if I said I’d growing 1000s of plants for 10s of years you’d still be having a go at me for lack of experience… I could hit you with the same arrogant questions, where’re your scientific qualifications? What statistical analysis did you do on you’re experiment, what were the findings with respect to significance? Lol words just falling off deaf ears… I tried I really tried… so many people said not to bother, unlike most I haven’t gotten angry with you, swore, abused or disrespected you hempy, I have just tried to explain to you the facts.

Clearly it doesn’t matter what I say as you’re not looking for answers, you’re looking for reassurance of your faith of hating femmed seeds… this is no longer about what the real case is, you’re not searching to further your understanding, this is just about you and your ego hempy… I accuse you of having the know it all attitude mate. Maybe you should have a piece of the humble pie you just tried handing me. I’ll respect and listen to anyone of any age/experience when they speak rationally and with sense on whatever topic…

 

[DarwinsBulldog]

thats right,,,i feel like my education is getting spit on sometimes,,it actualy hurts when it happens from guys i like,,

when you get your masters darwin,, il care

sorry for asking this but im genuinly intrigued,,hempy/jess/nev/.,,what degrees and qualification do you guys have?,,,darwin allmost has a masters

i just don't get it, i mean i'm not waving this shit about to appear better than anyone, when i stated i was studying post grad genetics it was just to explain that i do have some clue as to what i'm talking about... i have put in the hard yards and effort to learn all of this stuff for a very long time, it doesn't seem that many others are in the same position so i feel i can share what i know to fill in certain blanks. again as i've said this is NOT about comparing dick lengths, you keep laughing at education and suggesting experience is all that matters... experience learning the theory behind the practice when it comes to this stuff is as important if not more so.

 

[resinbud]

Very well spoken Darwin

All of our opinions on this site are important as anyone else's, and what really matters is the finished product free from defects. resinbud,

 

[kylebroflovski]

Darwin you make a good point about scientific theory and how other variables could possibly be the reason for Hempy's loss of vigor. But don't you think that your OPINIONS should be backed by more then 6 years of lecture, and studies of how hops are the closest living relative to cannabis?

I myself have been growing for more then 20 years. Hempy sounds like he's been at it for quite a while as well. Who has solid info on the subject? Is it people with lab coats? No it's people with dirt (or coco) under their nails. RC Clarke might be the exception but I know he spent much time with THE plant.

My point is this Darwin. The people that are making discoveries about OUR plant are not sitting in classrooms discussing or the ones debating about recessive genes, they are the ones planting seeds observing how those genes are matching up.

So Darwin I appreciate all of the book learning you have done and I really do agree with your and every scientists definition of the scientific theory which Hempys findings do not qualify under. However I think his observation COULD BE a possibility.

Since you are familiar with the process of scientific theory you are also aware of bias. It does appear that alot of your OPINIONS may be biased.???


No offense Darwin you don't really seem to know what your talking about as it pertains to OUR plant. You have a very good grasp of words that make you sound like an authority on the subject however. In my humble opinion this forum needs another college educated expert with limited hands on experience as much as we need Shanti to start making feminized seeds.

 

[DarwinsBulldog]

Darwin you make a good point about scientific theory and how other variables could possibly be the reason for Hempy's loss of vigor. But don't you think that your OPINIONS should be backed by more then 6 years of lecture, and studies of how hops are the closest living relative to cannabis?

I myself have been growing for more then 20 years. Hempy sounds like he's been at it for quite a while as well. Who has solid info on the subject? Is it people with lab coats? No it's people with dirt (or coco) under their nails. RC Clarke might be the exception but I know he spent much time with THE plant.

My point is this Darwin. The people that are making discoveries about OUR plant are not sitting in classrooms discussing or the ones debating about recessive genes, they are the ones planting seeds observing how those genes are matching up.

So Darwin I appreciate all of the book learning you have done and I really do agree with your and every scientists definition of the scientific theory which Hempys findings do not qualify under. However I think his observation COULD BE a possibility.

Since you are familiar with the process of scientific theory you are also aware of bias. It does appear that alot of your OPINIONS may be biased.???


No offense Darwin you don't really seem to know what your talking about as it pertains to OUR plant. You have a very good grasp of words that make you sound like an authority on the subject however. In my humble opinion this forum needs another college educated expert with limited hands on experience as much as we need Shanti to start making feminized seeds.

"Cannabis would have been dioecious much the same as it is today when the first humans domesticated the plant. It’s monoecious ancestor is most likely many millions of years old. A close relative of cannabis, Humulus lupulus L. (or Hops used in beer etc, is in the same family, cannabinacae) is dioecious too, and cannabis and humulus split more than 1.29 million years ago from what I was reading on humulus recently. Way before present people in other words…"

sorry kyle but i never stated that hops were THE closest living relative to cannabis. i'm not studying hops, i just happened to be reading a paper of it's evolution to see when it had a divergence from cannabis.

with respect...why should my opinions need to be backed with a set amount of time or experience growing? is one only able to understand processes involving the more complex biology of cannabis once one's grown out 100+ plants? or maybe 1000+? if i put another 259 in the ground tomorrow, and pass that number will i then have better knowledge of the genetics of cannabis? you need experience in all areas, not just a lot in one to be able to back up your opinions in this area, but hey that's just my opinion....

you seem to not really get me or my point like hempy and jesse... i haven't disagreed that it may well be the case with hempy's seeds and his experiment, i just stated he can't say definitively that all S1 seeds are going to be dodgy simply because one of his experiment grows of 18 plants showed loss in vigour, though it may well be the case. but the point is it's the level of inbreeding causing this NOT the fact that the seeds are S1s... you can get the same level of inbreeding and loss in vigour/genetic issues with inbred F generations. the "label" of selfing for this process does not cause the lack in vigour, it's the factor of inbreeding that is to blame.

you've said my opinions may be biased, but biased towards what? i have no reason to want or not want feminized seeds around, i myself grow out both versions, but at the moment and in the past have only ever used males in breeding, but once i'm able i'd love to try feminizing as well depending on what i want to do. i have a lot of friends who are pro fem seeds to, but i'm no sheep or blind follower, the reason i'm so pro fem is because of my understanding of the processes involved, and if done right, there shouldn't be any issues, and as they and myself all understand this on a genetic level and how it works, when all that's happened here on the anti fem seeds is you not offer up any explanation, you simply say they're all bad with no reason as to why? when i and many others on here have given you long and accurate explanations for why but those parts are ignored.

i never proclaimed to be an expert, just thought i would be in a position to explain the genetics going on behind these processes so that you heard from someone who's studied it. but alright, I am really sorry if I came off the wrong way concerning my opinions, but I want you all to know that I really appreciate your opinions, and remember that mine are mine only. I am very glad to be here with you on our quest to find the Grail without ruining the genes in the process.

 

[Donald Mallard]

Wally,
Why is it you and others find it so hard to stay on topic? Do I need to remind you of the subject of the thread? Which conveniently, has nothing to do with what you've "been talking about" above. I suppose this is the point you tell me, Ive once again, misunderstood what you were writing? lol.

Check it out, the title of the thread is :
Fem seeds and there impact on the future of the species known as cannabis.

Now when you want to actually post something relevent to the discussion, by all means (as Ive said before) post away. I would love to hear what you have to say on the actual subject at hand. I dont care about your excuses for why Selfing is a tool, useful or not. What does that have to do with the industry of feminized seeds as it stands? Where these seeds (feminized) are sold to the public, and the demand is so great (based off false propaganda) that its become an increasingly more popular trend. You're talking apples (as usual) and Im talking oranges. So when you want to come to the right field, I think we're all waiting to see what you have to offer.

Why do I have a feeling the actual subject will purposely be taken off subject by you and your minions once again? What is it that you cats do not want the public to know, that you go through such lengths to completely hop, skip and jump over the true nature of the this thread? It happens in every feminized seed debate. Fem central must have you people by the balls lol! Is Gypsy going to stop selling your seeds if you dont attempt to justify what he, and others (your friends) are doing to the cannabis gene pool? Something which so many of you seem to care little a bout, the future of the plant. Which is what is truly important here, not your side tracked efforts to stiffle the topic of the thread with off topic remarks.

Focus Wally, I know you can do it! Focus!

Darwin,
Thanks for the remarks above, which basically demonstrate similar points which have been made already in this thread. The customers are being used, lead to believe the virtues of Feminized Seed by a propaganda campaign which is designed solely to take their money. And in the process, potentially having devestating effects on the future of the cannabis plant itself. Where years of selection, for and against specific traits, are being essentially washed away. Taking the plant backwards, instead of forwards (as hempys S1 plants demonstrate).

This thread isnt about my refusal to purchase these feminized seeds, its about what this feminized seed trend has on the future of the plant. Obviously being a newer member, who has not spent nearly any significant amount of time on these boards, you do not care that your fellow man is being taken advantage of. In fact you're mocking these people, who like yourself, are newer to this industry and are completely taken advantage of. So I wouldnt expect you to demonstate any kind of consideration for how these posters, who may be seeking seed for medical reasons (let that sink in a bit) are being used. Their money taken, and offered an inferior product to those who actually do have have a truly medicinal and elite line that would benefit them and their medical needs. You call them sheep, I call them victims of a misinformation campaign which could potentially have devestating effects in the future and as Shanti said, lead to a genetic crisis!

Well your just a crack up jesse ,, i addressed somethings hempy said that he reckoned he had no proof that its useful ,, he saw proof but selectively ..

Im not wasting my time with jerks like you jesse , you must think your a moderator around here or something they way you treat people .. personally im not a fan of it and think you should do as youve said ,, be more respectful to members ,, specially long standing ones ...
lets face it man you just want an arguement ,, your not getting one from me...
im out ...