hempy, with all due respect my friend, i've just finished a post grad university course on experiment design and statistical analysis so i feel i'm qualified to answer this question. i will add i haven't read up on your experiment if you've written it up in a thread with all the necessary information so what i can argue is limited to what i've read in the last few pages here i admit.
the trouble is with your experiment, you've only used one replicate (the strain) with 18 samples of it, what did you use as a control, did you grow out a batch of regular seeds x 18 as a control group to compare the first replicate to? if not how do you know there's loss of vigour? and even if so, how do you know that the loss of vigour is directly attributable to them being feminized whether selfed or cross femmed? your experiment hasn't controlled for other factors like getting a bad batch of seed (ie, you didn't buy many many packs of the same strain and run them as separate replicates to compare with one another, as well as with the control). there could've been outside factors or inside ones that affected the quality of those seeds and could account for the loss of vigour - you haven't controlled for these variables because you only used one lot of 18.
as i stated above there are two different methods of making femmed seeds, and i've seed it before in other threads. you can take 2 females of distant or close relatedness and make them produce pollen THEN use each others' pollen on the other female (THIS IS NOT SELFING) this is equivalent to using a male to pollinate a distant or close related female. you've taken gametes from one, and mixed it with gametes from the other. this is cross pollination, and the genetic health of the offspring or F1s will be equal to the F1s produced by a male/female cross of the same relatedness/genetic heritage.
selfing - creating S1 feminized seeds, occurs whereby you take 1 individual and induce the production of male pollen and then fertilize its own flowers with it. (you can do this also in the same process as above cross pollination if you use 2 clones of the same female to reproduce with one another). and in this case, i wouldn't argue that it is MORE LIKELY that the F1 offspring will show loss in vigour and deleterious alleles pairing up and being expressed, however this can occur just in the same in IBLs... once you go past F1s and breed those sisters and brothers with each other to create F2s you've the same likelihood of getting deleterious alleles pairing up and loss in vigour. the maths is the same when you write it out mate. if you want me to do it i can.
anyway the trouble is, you can't just buy feminized seeds and say they're S1 if you don't know they are... if they were made by cross pollinating which i'm sure the majority of good breeders would do (why would they want shit products, if they want money it's better to be selling good products for a long time, not shit ones in the short time or people would move on fast) then they're as equally genetically healthy as the regular seeds of the same strain by the same breeder. the point is if you haven't looked into it, how can you be certain they're S1 or cross pollinated feminized seed? and if you don't know that, how can you then draw conclusions on the quality of S1 seeds?
you say "
most wont even tell people how they make there fem seeds" and then in the same breath you finish with "
most are selling s1 seeds useing these so called elite clones to push these things onto the market"... if they're not telling anyone, how do you know they're selling S1 seeds from elite clones onto the market? 
but i agree with you that S1 seeds MAY (not definitely but MAY) have lower genetic health, and if you're right and companies are doing this using elite clones, then yes shame on them if they know it's inferior quality seed they're charging twice as much for... but at the end of the day if you are skeptical of this, or even know for a fact it's the case.... DON"T BUY THEIR STUFF?! if john doe of the street wants to waste his money doing it what does it matter? he'll eventually come to the same conclusion as you when he realises it's shit seed like all the rest, and if they all don't and are happy with what they paid for, then clearly there isn't enough wrong with the seeds warranting such complaints? but yeah let me reiterate i'm not disagreeing with you that there are breeders out there who will be cutting corners, using shit practices to make dodgy seed only chasing a dollar, but this will always be the case with any aspect of life, and when it comes to cannabis this was (i'm sure) occurring much the same before the advent of feminization... it's not the processes/breeding mechanisms to blame it's the slack arse breeders who use these processes/mechanisms poorly who are to blame my friend. the only case of S1 fem seeds i know of for sure is that of rez's SSSDH S1s and he's given full disclosure about it and stated it from the go what it was, the only reason he made them for sale was because his customers asked him to!
"Explane to me them my friiend and you have the back ground to do this why is it that the f2 made from the same f1 mum the s1 were had the same vigor as her mum made useing her brother from the f1 seeds yet the s1 do not."
i'm a little confused here, "the F2's made from the same f1 mum the s1", does this refer to seed made from an F1 female by selfing it to create S1 (F2) seeds (should it be S2?)? you'll have to explain it a bit more than that to me sorry i can't picture the crosses.
love that your current location now says a-dam! i'm very jealous you lucky bastard! haha i'm yet to read the entire thread as it took me the best part of 2 hrs while at work to write my first reply here... i finally clocked off now it's midnight so i might read it, but i might also have a smoke (in which case i'll be too high to think about these things and debate properly). it's funny seeing the same characters rising in these arguments, across threads and even now apparently across forums lol
