Fem seeds and there impact on the future of the species known as cannabis.

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krk said:
go buy a book I dont have time for someone like you...
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Well you certainly had enough time to tell me I needed a genetics lesson lol. Now when put on the spot to provide such a lesson, you're conveniently walking out the door. With quite a bit to say, none of it addressing the lessons I supposidly need, on your way lol.

krk said:
And dont quote me like that....picking fights is low buisness. you quote me to look like I'm saying nevil needs a genetic lesson... no you do.

now fix your mistake...

this is not what I said..."you do need a lesson in genetics...sorry but you do. Nevil"
Click to expand...

I think you will find the next word after your "sorry but you do" is in fact Nevil. If you're worried Nevil is going to confuse that statement as a suggestion the problem is somehow with him, I think you can lay your weary head to rest knowing he can certainly read for his own and understand those were not your intentions.

Now I will wait for these genetic lessons you so boldy proclaim I need, however I have my doubts you can deliver. Relying on a controlled stream of information from those who stand to gain based on what is presented is not the best place to gather your tools for battle. Thinking on your own, with your own research from valid sources, is however a great idea.

Cheers :)
 
krk said:
go buy a book I dont have time for someone like you...

And dont quote me like that....picking fights is low buisness. you quote me to look like I'm saying nevil needs a genetic lesson... no you do.

now fix your mistake...

this is not what I said..."you do need a lesson in genetics...sorry but you do. Nevil"
Click to expand...

krk said:
I dont have time for someone like you...
Click to expand...

xy xy xy xy xy xy xy xy
 
Well, since we're in the business of quoting our own statements for the sake of prosperity, I want to make sure this statement does not fall on deaf ears to those who truly need to read, understand and digest it. :D

JessE said:
Hi all,
As someone previously touched upon, the argument that the feminization process can be a useful tool is being used as an excuse to justify the practices which are wide spread in the cannabis seed industry today. Unfortunately quite a few of these "breeders" only have one "tool" in their tool box. And thats selfing allegedly elite plants. With a cursery glance at one of the main culprits in pushing this unfortunate practice on the general public, there were approximately 20 different options available to the public for acquiring a feminized product. Some of you may or may not be under the impression those who offer these lines know what they are doing, or are qualified breeders. Simply put, all but a very small handful are anything but genuine and qualified. Now how many years have passed since this practice has become main stream? And how many packs of seed do you think are shipped out on a daily basis to all corners of the globe?

As Shanti had mentioned, a genetic crisis could very well be at hand in the not too distant future due to this increasingly popular trend. This is a subject not to be taken lightly, or padded with narrow reasoning which can easily be misconstrued by the majority as to the validity of such practices by those who truly have little business pushing the hermaphroditic varieties that they are. When one shakes a bottle of pop, upon opening it you will find out why that is not a good idea. But its far too late by that point to keep the frazzled soda inside its container. What will any of you do if, or when, we find out the practice so many have condoned by idealistic notions which have little to do with the reality of the current situation, past, present or future, is found to have not been such a good idea after all? You will have pop all over your brand new shirt, and nobody to blame but yourselves! And it will be far too late by that point.

Unfortunately, the right hands are extremely rare in a sea of greedy and unqualified mittens. The notion selfing is an important tool with useful applications has little bearing on the current situation, which is what this thread was initially designed to address. The fact so many options are available to the public, with an ever increasing demand, by those who only have one tool in their tool box. Its in fact their entire tool box. And we're not talking about a small percentage of poorly equipped mechanics, but rather a large pool of folks who have no regard for the true safety of the cannabis pool and a great deal of concern for the amount of cash in their bank accounts.

The myth that your feminized seed is a guaranteed all female crop has been busted long ago, though a conservative effort to push that information to the side by those who stand to gain has occured for sometime. These threads, which do have an impact on the sales which these same individuals stand to gain or lose from, based on what is presented, are often taken off topic by various means in an effort to stiffle the legitimate concerns which have been presented. The last thing these individuals want is for the course to be maintained, now I think many of you have to consider why that is? Nobody is against keeping an open mind, however to continue to justify these snake oil salesmens business practices with idealistic notions, as opposed to those of the realistic nature of the business at hand, only continues to feed the greed of the economic beast.
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to quote someone who said this on one of these forums not long ago


cant we all just get a bong

im done with the fighting and gunna do my best to just shut up when someone pisses me off

peace everyone :D
 
Hey Jesse,
Things were alot nicer around here when you were busy with your Gulf oil spill thread, but as views are down to about 5 a week over there the last few weeks, I guess you need to spend your time doing something.

I don't agree with your point of view, but that's cool, I just don't appreciate the way you attack people when they disagree with you, your tone becomes more aggressive and although your a senior member with alot of posts, you basically act like a dick IMO.

It's not that people can't handle the truth you seem to think your laying down for them, it's just that it's not worth getting into an online battle with you, as you seem to be pretty good at them by now, with your copy and pasting and editing skills.

I'm glad that alot of the members around here are a bit more open minded and chilled out than you, it makes discussing things and finding out peoples experiences and opinions a bit easier and so much more enjoyable.

Peace, GG

Do you not think reposting your post from earlier is abit egotistical of ya? I do
 
F1 clone mum plant.
attachment.php


F2 seed plant made using F1 mum above x to a selected brother.
attachment.php


S1 seed made from the F1 mum.
attachment.php


I don't understand why posts need to turn into shit fests people can argue a point or point of vue with out the need to insult others and do it in a carm and rash way.

Pictures dont lie i see a massive difference in s1 to the f1 and f2 i know what i would rather grow and even spend my money on or time.
 
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Hi Brother Hempy,
That looks like Queenie {aka pony killer} That Mr NICE Mango Haze is one powerful plant.
send me a cutting...j/k :D
I was lucky this season and got one old Mango Haze seed to give me another female
full sister to Million Dollar Baby clone.
which by the way is a
MNS Original F1 so anyone can get it,fresh from Mr NICE...

Feminised seed plant from09 grow
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/showthread.php?t=2436


chat at ya later Bro

peace
scorpion
 
Chimera said:
Chimera Seeds will NEVER offer feminized seeds. I will however offer TRUE GYNOECIOUS releases in the next couple of years. 'Feminization' or 'Feminized' seeds are marketing terms, not plant breeding terms. I think feminized seeds have problems because that's what they are: poorly "feminized" version or the same - not a true gynoecious populations.

I have been working with gynoecious selections for the better part of a decade and have parallel gynoecious populations of almost all of my lines.

The creation of gynoecious lines is a technique- an ends to a means, and not a result per se. They are neither all good nor all bad. Anyone that espouses either position as 'the only way' is missing the point, IMHO. The seeds are only as good as the technique used to create them, and the genetic contributions of the selections on which they were based. The future health of the population is directly dependent on the genetic diversity contained therein.

I did an interview with Dolce Vita a couple of years back (an Italian cannabis mag) and one of the questions was about 'feminized seeds and whether feminized seeds would ruin the global cannabis genepool'... my reply was that I was far more concerned with the technique of 1:1 matings, genetic bottle necks and founder events than the creation of feminized seeds per se. Why? Because 1:1 matings significantly reduces the genetic diversity wihin any given line.

The creation of gynoecious populations can be achieved without 1:1 matings. They are not mutually inclusive. The problem in my eyes is that the vast majority (perhaps even ALL) of the current 'feminized' seeds are produced by 1:1 matings. People sit around and try to argue that they are bad because they are 'feminized'... whereas in my opinion, if they created using proper technique (ie - NOT something silly like "Rodelization').... they are of ill genetic health because of the fact that they are products of 1:1 matings schemes, and not the result of 'feminization' in and of itself.

Make sense?.

Respectfully,
-Chimera
Click to expand...

Another point of view.
 
hempy said:
I asked for my account at icmag to be deleted today trust me i am not far from doing the same here its people like you that makes people like me log out and for good but its people like shanti and neville that keep me here.

I think i post for my self and jesse him self i posted pictures and i believe i made a valid argument i have not acted like a child but posts like yours makes me think it is pointless and a wasted energy to bother trying to point out what others all ready know to be a bad thing.

As for the links and posts i added they are from my posts i found researching the fem topic so i did not use any other persons quotes or work found.

Nothing but the post above with links was from any other posts i made they are new and brought to you by hempy INC international rights for the freedom and rights and wealth-fair of cannabis and its species call it a watch dog to control morons field by greed if you like i am the CEO lol.
Click to expand...


Hempy,

you and I have had our differences, to me thats healthy yin/yang, I will say you always have the plants interest at heart and you cannot change views or enter into dialog without being present, to change the mind you need to change the thinking !! so whats to be gained by going?

Kopite

I will also say that what Chim has stated sums everything for me
 
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JessE said:
Hi all,
As someone previously touched upon, the argument that the feminization process can be a useful tool is being used as an excuse to justify the practices which are wide spread in the cannabis seed industry today. Unfortunately quite a few of these "breeders" only have one "tool" in their tool box. And thats selfing allegedly elite plants. With a cursery glance at one of the main culprits in pushing this unfortunate practice on the general public, there were approximately 20 different options available to the public for acquiring a feminized product. Some of you may or may not be under the impression those who offer these lines know what they are doing, or are qualified breeders. Simply put, all but a very small handful are anything but genuine and qualified. Now how many years have passed since this practice has become main stream? And how many packs of seed do you think are shipped out on a daily basis to all corners of the globe?

As Shanti had mentioned, a genetic crisis could very well be at hand in the not too distant future due to this increasingly popular trend. This is a subject not to be taken lightly, or padded with narrow reasoning which can easily be misconstrued by the majority as to the validity of such practices by those who truly have little business pushing the hermaphroditic varieties that they are. When one shakes a bottle of pop, upon opening it you will find out why that is not a good idea. But its far too late by that point to keep the frazzled soda inside its container. What will any of you do if, or when, we find out the practice so many have condoned by idealistic notions which have little to do with the reality of the current situation, past, present or future, is found to have not been such a good idea after all? You will have pop all over your brand new shirt, and nobody to blame but yourselves! And it will be far too late by that point.

Unfortunately, the right hands are extremely rare in a sea of greedy and unqualified mittens. The notion selfing is an important tool with useful applications has little bearing on the current situation, which is what this thread was initially designed to address. The fact so many options are available to the public, with an ever increasing demand, by those who only have one tool in their tool box. Its in fact their entire tool box. And we're not talking about a small percentage of poorly equipped mechanics, but rather a large pool of folks who have no regard for the true safety of the cannabis pool and a great deal of concern for the amount of cash in their bank accounts.

The myth that your feminized seed is a guaranteed all female crop has been busted long ago, though a conservative effort to push that information to the side by those who stand to gain has occured for sometime. These threads, which do have an impact on the sales which these same individuals stand to gain or lose from, based on what is presented, are often taken off topic by various means in an effort to stiffle the legitimate concerns which have been presented. The last thing these individuals want is for the course to be maintained, now I think many of you have to consider why that is? Nobody is against keeping an open mind, however to continue to justify these snake oil salesmens business practices with idealistic notions, as opposed to those of the realistic nature of the business at hand, only continues to feed the greed of the economic beast.
Click to expand...

For one I find it rich that shanti talks about a genetic crisis when I believe he used to BC (more cube) every line, thats bad practice there, though I believe he no longer does this?

always bare in mind the "fem" seeds are there for specifics, ie theres a market/need for them.. Ca$h cropper$.. I feel instead of the usual thing we have which is a pissing match, perhaps we should collate info and get educated so people do things right? as Chim states more damage is being done via extremely low breeding techniques... its safe to say Chim, TH, SamS and present company have all used selfing as a valuble tool this cannot be debated at all as far as I'm concerned, what can be is peoples breeding practices or lack there of...
The myth that your feminized seed is a guaranteed all female crop has been busted long ago, though a conservative effort to push that information to the side by those who stand to gain has occured for sometime.
Click to expand...

if done right theres no problem.. just like with any breeding... for instance how do you feel about cucumbers etc ? we also have to remember as things state to change worldwide is this will be seen a medicinal crop of which the female is the desired plant...
 
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moonunit said:
lol I now relise this is a thread specificaly to prevoke and sustain argument for the purpose of ego inflation, pity as their could have been some great discussion and knowledge dropped( i was hoping we would get into the biological mechanisms of sexing in cannabis, but we cant seem to get past point 1).
last post for me in this one i think, as banging my head against a brick wall is not my idea of fun, nor productive.
moonunit
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I'd like to have egos left aside, no pissing match, just a good discussion with proven facts, less hearsay, for one I"d like to hear more from you.

Kopite
 
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hi all

first of all a few remarks :


at freshgenetics:
CHimera breeder is cheaky.....: a gynoecious line is a line were there are only females (very much used for hybrid production in cucumber) but to maintain this line you have to use sex reversion techniques using GA3 or silver nitrate or silver thiosulfates (very much used to maintain the cucumber lines), in other words, he uses the word gynoecious instead of feminized to make it look beter, but it is strictly the same.

Where I see differences is that he introduces the term of lines, that mean that he must have developed feminized lines that he maintain using sex reversion but that have been worked on for their quality. it is not just a simple feminisation of a hybrid to produce F2 sold as F1.
this is beter than usual breeder.

The best method would be to develop 2 gynoecious lines (inbred lines highly homozygous) very different and cross them to have a real hybrid with a lot of vigour

second remark :

A simple rule in breeding is to cross the extrems, look at Nevil and other breeders, they were just lucky to be there at the good time : cross a mexican with a thai which are two extrems and you will have a killer weed, the same is true with afgani crossed with colombian
very different genotypes that have recombined perfectly well because very different from one an other. Were they did a good work was to select the plants with the best recombination.

this is true wathever gynoecious or monoecious lines you use.


third remark for KrK

good to put scienfic articles but not just any scientific articles, the second link is rather interesting because it is a sumary of the different researchs (look for De Meijer and Mandolino et al. for the real researchs)
the first article is very specific, 0,0001% of the people will be able to understand it but it has nothing to do with sex determinism (it just talks about molecular markers developed to find retrotransposable sequences in sex chromosomes). I think you've posted it to make it look nice and complex...:D you don't fool me !

last remark to Jessy


Many people have said that the main problem for the use of sex revers techniques was loss of diversity in the cannabis germplasme, but I realize that nobody has precisly explained how this would happen.
So please, explain to me how could sex reversion technics affect genetic diversity especially if fem seeds are grow in one cycle for cola production without any pollination.

I believe I've explained in a simple way my point of view so now it's the other side to do it.

Cheers


Bonbolos
 
at freshgenetics:
CHimera breeder is cheaky.....: a gynoecious line is a line were there are only females (very much used for hybrid production in cucumber) but to maintain this line you have to use sex reversion techniques using GA3 or silver nitrate or silver thiosulfates (very much used to maintain the cucumber lines), in other words, he uses the word gynoecious instead of feminized to make it look beter, but it is strictly the same.

Where I see differences is that he introduces the term of lines, that mean that he must have developed feminized lines that he maintain using sex reversion but that have been worked on for their quality. it is not just a simple feminisation of a hybrid to produce F2 sold as F1.
this is beter than usual breeder.

The best method would be to develop 2 gynoecious lines (inbred lines highly homozygous) very different and cross them to have a real hybrid with a lot of vigour
Click to expand...

I think Chim just does not like the term Feminised etc... he has worked Female(gynoecious) lines for 10 years and been reversing males as well for a number of years... ie I presume he has worked both sides of a line etc... only way tmk to have the vigour..

Kopite
 
hi all

ol I now relise this is a thread specificaly to prevoke and sustain argument for the purpose of ego inflation, pity as their could have been some great discussion and knowledge dropped( i was hoping we would get into the biological mechanisms of sexing in cannabis, but we cant seem to get past point 1).
last post for me in this one i think, as banging my head against a brick wall is not my idea of fun, nor productive.
moonunit
Click to expand...

just to reply to this, it was found out using radioactive labeled STS that silver nitrate (or thiosulfate) works an a antagonist to ethylen (plant hormone produced as a gaz) which is responsible for flower formation and plays a role in hormone balance.
GA3 has exactly the same effect but as it is itself a hormone it acts in many areas to trigger unfavorable traits. Silver nitrate is must safer to use than GA3 (and that silver thiosulfate) because it has a lower toxic effect and gives beter results.
( Induction of fertile male flowers in genetically female Cannabis sativa plants by silver nitrate and silver thiosulphate anionic complex; H. Y. Mohan Ram and R. Sett, 1982).

this techniques are used in tomato, potato, cumcumber and many other crops.

Cheers

Bonbolos
 
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