Limited Mango Haze inbred generation

Status
Not open for further replies.
From wiki on stabilised f1 production.

For mass-production of F1 hybrids with uniform phenotype, the parent plants must have predictable genetic effects on the offspring. Inbreeding and selection for uniformity for a number of generations ensures that the parent lines are almost homozygous. The divergence between the parent lines promotes improved growth and yield characteristics in the F1 offspring through the phenomenon of heterosis ("hybrid vigour").

Two populations of breeding stock with desired characteristics are subject to inbreeding until the homozygosity of the population exceeds a certain level, usually 90% or more. Typically this requires more than ten generations. After this happens, both populations must be crossed while avoiding self-fertilization. Normally this happens in plants by deactivating or removing male flowers from one population, taking advantage of time differences between male and female flowering or hand-pollinating.[4]


Shanti told a member in pm that the parents of SSH or Mh I forget which are f4. The member mentioned this in the open forum. Which is against the rules. Kashrocks then made a comment. Something like: don't you all know how a stabilised f1 is made?
I would assume these posts are still up at the forum but have not checked.

Peace
BL
 
i just want to add my understanding of the SSH and MH, as far as i know they are both F1, not true F1 hybrids because true F1 hybrids are crosses of two unrelated landraces. they are stabilized F1, it doesn't means they are inbred because if it was the case we could name them with the right generation name : F2, F3 ect...or BC...
so to me stabilized F1 means the parents was inbred and linebred. the key is in these two things for me. :)
 
Last edited:
Look at it this way..

Nev sprouts 1000 5c f1 seeds

The best two females are 5c1 and 5c122 and are both f1

Nev preferred 5c1 shanti preferred 5c122 because of extreme mango smell amongst other things.

Shanti wants to breed the use full traits from 122 into a new f1 hybrid

He the must find a f1 male from the 5c seeds that goes well with 122. Then goes to work inbreeding/ linebreeding until he is happy that the generation he ends up at has plants that resemble 122 and will now breed true for the mango traits.

From here he can select his new 122 and a male 122 if he wants..

Then there's the male skHz to go through the same process.

This may not be accurate but is the way I understand it fro the snippets of info from shanti. I also get the impression shanti calls 122 mango haze... and this mango haze inbred could be just that...

Good luck with them if you have them.

Peace
BL
 
this is an interesting view billy liar, i never thought of this as complicated like that because the ratio of mango phenotype in the mango haze is not very high but you could be right :)
 
I am so glad I grabbed a few packs of these and I just want to say thanks for the education!

Regardless of the actual pedigree, this discussion is helping me to begin to understand how it could have happened.

Respect to all contributing.
 
Sensimilla13 said:
All I want to know is if there is all of this haze inbreeding going on...Where's all the cat piss?
Click to expand...
Just a guess but I'd say the selections would be being made against cat piss aromas.

I never hear anyone describe MNS hazes as having cat piss odor
Click to expand...
Here's a few from a brief search:

Super Silver Haze
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/1574-post18.html

Mango Haze
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/3388-post105.html

Nevil's Haze
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/7657-post11.html
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/52056-post5.html

Skunk Haze
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/52077-post6.html

Critical Haze
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/60807-post11.html

And all I have to say at this point about F1s...is somebody please check a goddamn dictionary...terms have definitions for a reason
Click to expand...
Unfortunately I think we're fighting an uphill battle there - the term is used so liberally/incorrectly on every cannabis site to the point where the true definition is lost. Some wrap it in inverted commas to signify this but it's pretty much accepted now in the greater cannabis community.

...and my last word of advice...just grow the seed and make up your mind for yourself if you like it or not...it really is that simple...
Click to expand...
If all you're doing is growing the plant I would wholeheartedly agree but if you're planning to breed using certain methods it makes a difference and can save lots of wasted time if an accurate pedigree is known.

When the last commercial breeder on the planet with the reputation of putting it all out there has this many holes in the story...it's time to say fuck the pedigrees and just grow the seed...
Click to expand...
If it was any other seed company I'd agree that's good advice but being that MNS have the reputation for being so informative about their wares, a few think it's worthwhile asking the question.
 
cat pizzel

Hey all,
Just to chime in,I got two different 'cat piss' pheno's
fro 2 separate packs of dreamtime(yellow packs).
Both went '12o' days and over(i suspect they are 'nevilles haze' or mango by the growth pattern.
If your gonna select or de-select on the cat piss smell,then think again,because the pissy smelling plants were the keepers and one is over 2 years old,still smelling of piss and stronger potency wise than anything else I've tried in 2 years from other companies.
Also the first couple of run's,the piss smell was weakish,after 1-year and up to the second year the smell increased with the maturity of the plant.
A long flower-er at 120+days but the piss taste isn't overpowering in the smoke just a light pissy incense.
 
cat piss smell.

I will preface my main comment with this

- while it may not always be the case -

my only experience with the 'cat piss' smell and cannabis related to mold. If not properly dried, or when bud gets very dense (preventing air flow) it can mold, and that will lead to a strong 'cat piss' smell.

the grower who handed me a joint of his 'cat piss' stuff told me, "that smell means it has ass kickin' power". however after looking at his bag of cannabis, I was certain that smell actually meant that he had bagged while his cannabis was still too wet and it had molded.

I have seen some dense phenos that look like they would need much care to prevent mold issues.

at any rate, take this post with a grain of salt as I am not the final authority on the issue.

:)
 
hey sensimilla, how are you man ? its always interesting to speculate about the exact pedigree, it puts some of us to learn more about breeding techniques, genetic, biology, taxonomy, there are very good defintions of F1 hybrid, hybrid ect on wikipedia, maybe we could have a talk about that (again:D) together :)
 
howdy sensi

how you do friend?

am keen to think similar with respect to lineage

within such moment am keen to think which lineage and at how not much important

many thinks am wish for exact lineage, such and such exact to pair, such and such exact knowledge to which specimen within hybrids....such and such

current am keen to not know total lineage, already much ambiguity am never for feel confident to accuracy with not to view with scientific scope to analysis

am keen to analysis with respect to self

respect to all within cannabis community for share and learn and grow with love and positive

much positive energy within, much analysis with respect to variety within MNS catalogue, thank you to such and such member to source sachet with energy positive....

such to grow and garden sachet seed with positive energy

such to share analysis with positive energy

many member within community share great knowledge to experience with respect to lineage, and actual analysis with respect to such

am not more within such thinks to yearn for actual lineage, such lineage within simple to be

am keen to ask you opinion with respect to adequate scientific analysis equipment with respect to analysis genetic sequence

perhap not accurate such term genetic sequence....
am keen to view various specimen with respect to variety and at how to share similar marker

such blocks for build

similar am keen to gas spectrometer for analysis to cannabinoid and terpene

am keen to ask you preference with respect to opinion such and such equipment, am analysis to source used equipment with respect to efficiency within price
perhap preference to manufacturer brand?
unique feature?

thank you to share
alway respect you

Positive
Love

positive vibrations
 
Sensimilla13 said:
First, F1 is not specific to the canna community...so I don't care what the canna community thinks...I don't pay attention to groups of people that like to make shit up and bend the facts to suit their agenda or needs...

F1 is a breeding term...a general breeding term...It has a definition...

And of course you can find a few reports of piss...I'm talking about the masses of reports...Nevil stated that each generation increases the occurrence of cat piss...yet if the are as inbred as this thread suggests...the occurrence of catpiss is low...

Now, if you like your herb to smell like piss then I'm not going to tell you that you shouldn't...I have a friend who loves it too...most people find cat piss pheno's not so desirable.

Hahahaha, people have been harping to MNS for years about pedigree accuracy so that we can "know our lines" when one breeds with MNS plants...yet forever the info was not changed to reflect the accuracy of the seed lines here...this is not new...very little effort has been put forth to fix it...until recently? I thought I read SB was updating it.

And again...you want to be told what they are...but the story seems to be constantly shifting...I've seen the same question answered 3 different ways to 3 different people more than once...that seems like the accuracy of the info shifts from facts to "whatever they feel like saying".

Enjoy the Sherlock Holmes investigation...I'd rather work with my plants.
Click to expand...

Hi Sensi,
Can you please show us where one question has been answered three different ways by MNS? Because I am having a difficult time placing this claim, and suspect you're mistaken.



Originally Posted by Nevil

Hz C male produced 5Hz1 which won a Cup or 2, this was a daughter of NL5 which won a cup. 5Hz1 when crossed with Sk1x HzC produced Silver Haze which won a Cup.

Haze A produced 5HzA2 (5A2) and was featured on the cover of the 1990 catalogue and is the mother of Nevil's Haze, the father being HzC.
Click to expand...

Originally Posted by Piff Rhys Jones

No mention of inbreeding...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Originally Posted by Piff Rhys Jones

Im sure Nev confirmed the mother of SSH is (NL#5 x Haze C) f1 (not inbred) although I can't find the quote. My interpretation of the stabalisation was that he then mated this mother with many different (Skunk x Haze C) f1 males and tested the progency of each male before he found a male that mixed well.
Click to expand...

Piff Rhys Jones said:
Surely Shanti would have mentioned the inbreeding and working of both parent lines if SSH was not a straight up cross of NL5HzC x SkunkHzC?

I think the mention of "stabilisation" is what has caused the confusion. Hopefully Shanti will clarify.

Peace
Click to expand...
Hi all,
It would seem the thread is once again taking a turn very reminiscent of directions previous threads have taken (Ex.A and B), with questions and statements posed in manners as to suggest questionability when in fact some, if not nearly all of these topics have been previously addressed.

Ex.A
https://www.mrnice.nl/forum/4-talk-...ns-descriptions-need-some-correction-imo.html

Ex. B
https://www.mrnice.nl/forum/4-talk-shantibaba-mrnice/10566-nl-afghan.html



This thread is in fact riddled with posts made by members who have posed questions and statements which are purposely, or otherwise designed, phrased in a manner as to suggest MNS has been deceptive, dishonest, not fourth coming (Ex. C and D) and/or clandestine in information pertaining to its varieties and information released to their customer base. Some of these posts even go as far as to suggest correction is due to the breeder himself, though you've had what involvement in the breeding of any of these lines?

Ex. C
https://www.mrnice.nl/forum/1-about-website/10870-website-update-suggestion-box.html


Ex. D

Originally Posted by Piff Rhys Jones

Dunno if I've missed something but this is how I interpret it:

Shanti is talking about a male and female Mango Haze ie a selected male and female MH f1 that were selected from a batch of MH f1s in 2001.

The comments are ambiguous as he refers to "it" coming out of an old batch of seed, when he should have said the selected MH f1s came from an old batch of seed.

Peace
Click to expand...

I would recommend using information pertaining directly to MNS administration and not outside or related sources, as this is the original, unquestioned information. Some of these same issues have previously been addressed in the threads listed above, which are all too reminiscent of this thread.
 
Last edited:
Sensimilla13 said:
Jesse, why do you bother...I don't read a single letter of what you post...seriously, save yourself the time...I couldn't care less about what you have to say.

You and you alone keep me from this site usually.
Click to expand...

Hi Sensi,
So you're you're not able to source your claim? Generally speaking, when you make such a negative accusation against a company you're expected to be able to source such information. The alternative is risking looking as if you've put the wagon before the horse, which is appears to be the case.

I do not think anyone objects to genuine inquiries about MNS lines, however I can not help but notice the negative connotations, direction, tone of some of these questions which seem to be posed in a more negative fashion than bonified curiosity.

This same kind of action against MNS has previously surfaced, with the actions of a select few knowingly and in the case of some of you, unknowingly further encouraging this factions nefarious agenda(s).

So I hope to see this thread start to swing back into a factual based, positive direction. And not one full of accusations, innuendo's, and stacked responses which has up until this point been almost common place.
 
Jesse,

Do you KNOW if either of the parents of mango haze the mns seed line are inbred? If so can you tell us the generation? Or (like us mere mortals) are you second guessing from the info released thus far?

Thanks in advance
 
Hi MNS Forum , I have two simple questions .Is the parent of Nevilles Mango Haze actually Mango Haze or Northern Lights #5 x Haze ?


Does the Mango in the Mango Widow's name signify that it is a cross with the mango # 122 NL 5 Haze as a parent or was Mango Haze itself used as the mother?

Thank you.
 
Apparently the discussion about neville's haze x mango has been going on for awhile. Here's a quote from dr. longbottom in 2007 that actually sounds about right to me:

nevilles haze x mango is a different strain than mangohaze....if i recall correctly ''mango" is the name of one of the boy hazes that shanti uses in his breeding program. when he made mangohaze he used a sister plant to the mother of ssh and used the same father for both...the mango. In the nevilles haze x mango I beleive he just crosses his neville haze with the same boy haze (mango) used for both ssh and mangohaze. DLB


Digging through some of the old archives I found some posts that are relevant to the topic, and some are just interesting. A few were from before the mns forums started...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shantibaba
just to set the records straight MNS has a pure haze female also and thanks to Nev and the santa cruz haze bros these genetics were worked on well. BUt it is not practical to put on the market as the NH is already an extremely time consuming plant to do. What the cannabis world needed was practical hazes thus the birth of SSH, Mango Haze, and EQhaze....so on....which are all available from MNS. The other less stable hybrids that include haze as a parent are things like NH Mango, NHwidow, Mango widow and so on which I do make every so often...definitely not on a regular basis.
__________________________________________________
Hi All

the G13 cutting was crossed to a skunk male in the early 90's when the G13 cutting seemed to be on its way out. Nev did several crosses to combine the genes before the plant became extinct in its pure female form. So I went on with several of these lines one is G13skunk(female) combined with the widow male(same widow used for the BW, MM ,La N and SS).

I hope that clears things up for you all.

Wishing you all a great and safe 2007...all the best SB
__________________
ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ

all the best,
Shantibaba
__________________________________________________
Hi all

should be a pretty easy comparison considering the parents that make the F1 SSH seed are identical to the ones pre 1998 at the GHSco...but good luck with your selection process.All the best sb
__________________
ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ

all the best,
Shantibaba
__________________________________________________
Hi All

just to clarify it all for you so noone gets wrong facts in the right place.I never worked for Sensi Seed, Nevil was working with them after he got back to NL from his problems in Australia....early 90s. I was working setting up GHSco with Arjan, and Nev and I were friends. In between all the company crap Nev and I did alot of breeding together swapping and cloning etc...without the knowledge of any one else as these were breeding projects others were not involved in nor really showed interest in. At some stage we came out with Dr Kevorkian...a strain that was in between SSH and NH genetically. After that we began enjoying the exchange and Nev finish his co working with Sensi Seed, retiring to breeding carp and cannabis in a smaller way. That is when Nev and I spent alot of time together and Nl5/Haze/Mist was one of those things we did which won a cup...similarly I was working on the White line to make stable seed lines which took a long time.The weed was out long before the stable seed was...that is why the GHSco did not have seed till 1995/6...if people check well there was no seed sold with these names until after then even though there are loads of claims contrary to the truth. And since the early 90s Nev and myself played with alot of projects until I took over all things when Nev had other things on his plate.The history goes like that according to what I was involved in....all the best Sb
__________________
ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ

all the best,
Shantibaba
__________________________________________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shantibaba
When you have a series of males.Without checking for early resin gland production or any other trait you should look for uniformity of the plant.If you take the internode space from the bottom of the plant and follow it up to the top of the plant.What you should find is the plant displays a 1:1.6 ratio.If you see the bottom internode space is 1cm and the next internode space is 1.6cms and so on...then I say this is a better more stable plant to select...as well as takeing other traits into consideration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shantibaba
to base it on the internode ratio is one important factor for inbreeding genetic consistency that is already inherent.But by far not the only factor.
__________________________________________________
Hi All

well what did I learn in Irian Jaya....well they really do not have the cannabis culture there...it is mainly the native Papua's who actively use and cultivate so it is more easier to find it on the Papua New Guinea side. But those few I came across in remote areas and do their thing, are growing as primitives do from seed they interbred generation after generation which makes it quite exciting to research.

I showed those locals some basic things to reduce their seed content, but I really do not need to go there and show them things that take it from a hobby to a profession. So I just collect seed and move on. It would be extremely difficult to go back there as it was probably the toughest trek physically and mentally I and the other 7 ever did in the life and all of us were well adapted to doing things like this.So my collection of seed is now getting grown out on a remote and unihabitate island in the indonesia archipelago by a few captains who regularly pass these islands...so we will need patience and persistance.

I could write a chapter on what I learnt, but basically these people are cut off from the world where no mobile phones work...and it was so rare to experience a place like this in the 21st century.....I am better for it.

If you guys want to see some nice info on them then check out Papua New Guinea & West Papua - Tours & expedition, that gives a good idea.
__________________
ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ

all the best,
Shantibaba

__________________________________________________

Stereotaxic Cat
the story about SSH and WWS was difficult to follow . If you were one of the guys who bought things there you may want to get your SSH from Gypsy, online alien, doc chronic, the seedsman, vu-du.com and several others as these are all the shops that stock the originals in breeders packets. Considering SSH has always been an excellent stable breed it surprises me alot to hear anything disappointing about the breed.

My best advice to those in doubt is to talk to others online about those who bought things from WWS and see if others had similar problems...

all the best Sb
__________________
ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ

all the best,
Shantibaba

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=732389&postcount=4

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=1143932&postcount=12

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=1402392&postcount=45

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=1299254&postcount=2

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=1049900&postcount=43

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=782691&postcount=12

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=445204&postcount=21

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=638878&postcount=9

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=757046&postcount=3

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=725800&postcount=11

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=732389&postcount=4
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top