'Hazy Haze'

Hi Shanti and all

This thread is the 'continuing part' of the discussion I , Hempy , Scorpion and Herbalizor had over hg420 regarding Haze genetics the last few days.We decided to continue here at mns forums.

here is the link:http://www.hg420.com/showthread.php?t=13504&page=9&pp=10 pages9-12

Note that there are quite a few speculations from us in that discussion but we never claim that what we say is a fact unless it has been confirmed. We will try to collect as much as info as possible and get accurate details from people that have credible info directly from MNS before jumping into conclusions.


* I edited my posts at this thread because after a second thought , I came to agree with Cytrax and Scorpion's suggestion , that it is better to leave this thread clean and tidy with real info/facts only , so I removed the copy of the discussion that had speculations and other breeders' genetics involved ..and so I just left the link for those interested in reading it.

So I summarized in the next post bellow some of the info we would like to hear more about and some of our questions. Well the purpose of this thread is to collect as much as interesting information as possible , regarding the history ..and future of Haze genetics from mns point of view. This thread is meant to be for educational purposes and for those that are interested in Haze genetics background and credible info that has been posted by the people who worked directly with these genetics and have greatly contributed to the cannabis scene.

The main goal of this thread is to compile a solid info database with accurate Haze info and is primarily aimed to focus on MNS hazes and haze hybrids. If anyone of you has some interesting info feel free to contribute.

cheers.. L33t

Hi all

Shanti ,

First of all I 'd like to say that I believe that you do not owe anyone an answer regarding our questions.
But it would be really appreciated if you could take some time and share a few more details about your and Nev's work.Sharing information and our experiences about the MNS products is the purpose of this site after all and there are many people that would be interested to hear the true story and facts behind the strains they choose grow, as there is a lot of misinformation and lies online. We are just growers that love MNS genetics so.. its only natural to want to learn more about your and Nevil's work and also the genetic background of the strains you had the chance to work with so far.Also it would be nice to tell us a few things regarding the Haze research you were doing in Indonesia/Sumatra the last two months.Looking forward to the new strain releases , I m sure the new offerings you are working with will be quite interesting to say the least.




So till this point of our discussion , below is the summary of the questions that we have :


* When did Neville first got the Haze genetics and in what form where they , seed/clone?

* MNS Haze genetics are said to be from '69 does this mean that Nev got the seeds in 1969 or it means that these genetics are from 1969 (date back at that time)?If that is the case when did Nev get them himself ?

* What year did the breeding of Neville'sHaze strain begun and what was the first year it was released in the market?

* Were any clones released to the public from during the breeding period of NH or other Neville's/Shanti's early strains ?

* What exactly are the a5 and c5 clones / were these ever released to the public?

When you have some spare time feel free to pop in and I hope you are happy to share your knowledge with us.You are one of the few legitimate persons in this business and your input would be invaluable as you know things first hand and will talk directly from your experiences.

Cheers L33t

Hi all

I remember a post from shanti over CW where he was talking about haze hybrids and specifically NH (if my memory serves me right). He said that cold temps in conjunction with water deprivation during the last few weeks of flowering makes the plant finish couple of weeks faster.I remember he said to try to 'kill the plant with water deprivation'.

Well this has certainly worked with me and I 've tried it with SSH and other sativa dominant hybrids. Moreover I remember him saying that he had 2 rooms of NH the one running 12/12 and the other 10/14 (or 8/16 , I am not sure) all the way during flowering and the results were almost identical.If I remember correctly I think there was even a slight increase of yield in the room with less hrs of light/day.
I 've personally tried 10/14 and 8/16 with sativa dominant hybrids and pure sativas too and had great results.It definitely helps with the stretch and it forces plants to start flowering faster as well as finish quicker.

Hiya shanti ,
I have some more questions regarding some haze hybrids of yours , I had posted this some time back but as I hadn't received reply I thought to post it again here where it is also a more appropriate place , its a long post so please bear with me and I hope you can clear things up and help me understand things better.

Regarding SSH and MangoHaze:

shantibaba said:

just to clear the air from confusion and before you all go making a legend from myth here is how it was done and is done still....
-Nh is made from Haze C male which is made by two pure haze parents from 1969....then the female side of NH is made from Haze A combined to NL5 or NL5Haze A where Haze A was also made by two pure Haze parents also from 1969
-SSH is made up of Haze C combined to Skunk 1 or Skunk HzC which is the male side, the female side is Haze C combined to NL5 or NL5HzC
-Mango comes from a parallel cross same as SSH but with one difference
Haze A male combined to Sk 1 or Sk HzA being the male plant, the female is NL5HzC....that is the breeding of those three plants
-La Nina is the widow father breed to a pure Haze female...neither A or C by the way so I hope that clears up all your doubts once and for all.

Click to expand...

After reading your most recent post quoted above , where you cleared things up on the MH/SSH/NH genetic makeup , I bumped onto some older posts and I find myself to be still confused, below here are some of the reasons:

- In an old post I read ...:

shantibaba said:

All these descriptions have been written by myself or Neville so they will represent the strain as accurately as our experience goes.
"MR NICE SEEDBANK; ‘MANGO HAZE’
This strain is a parallel line to the Super Silver Haze, i.e. it has the same Haze father and the mother is a sister of the SSH.

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( quote from : http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=16341 , the same info can be found in the current mns website strains description )

- On another post you wrote in the past with similar info, I read that the SSH and MangoHaze have the same father but different mother ... :

shantibaba said:

"......When Nev had found the female line to breed to the haze male to create SSH there was alot of testing and sampling done by quite some legends....Mango is a parallel cross of the SSH.That means the same father but different mothers from the same generation that SSH's mother originated from.Lets say you have two sisters and they had children with the same man...basically...."

Click to expand...

- ..but now I read they have the same mother but different father :

shantibaba said:

"SSH is made up of Haze C combined to Skunk 1 or Skunk HzC which is the male side, the female side is Haze C combined to NL5 or NL5HzC

the Mango comes from a parallel cross same as SSH but with one difference Haze A male combined to Sk 1 or Sk HzA being the male plant, the female is NL5HzC...."

Click to expand...

I seem to find myself confused here.On older posts I read that SSH and Mango Haze have the same father.. but now I read they have the same mother instead...if I understand things correctly and do not misinterpret your posts this information seems contradicting. Could you please elaborate?

**Edit:

The only thing I can think of , is that perhaps that the NL5HazeC in these strains is different.So basically I can pressume the NL5HazeC in SSH is different than the NL5HazeC used in MangoHaze. So thats why you say their mothers are sisters.

So if that is the case I guess the part where you said that "..Mango is a parallel cross of the SSH.That means same father.." caused my confusion, I interpreted that :as the male side of these 2 strains is the same while you must mean something else with that.


Cheers..L33t

Shanti,

By the way I still don't understand one more thing about description of the 'Neville'sHaze x Mango' strain .

Could you please explain to me how can it have 50% HazeC in it like you mention on the mns website descriptions of this strain ?

shantibaba said:

'' 'Neville's Haze x Mango Haze' =
Family of breed: 12.5% Skunk, 25% NL5, 12.5% Haze A male, 50% Haze C male''

Click to expand...

If NHxMH is a direct cross between NH and MH , it could only have 50%HazeC in it if Neville's Haze did not have any HazeA and has only hazeC.
But in your latest post you said Nev'sHaze does have HazeA and you wrote that 'Neville'sHaze' is : HazeC x (NL5HazeA)
and 'MangoHaze' is : (SkHazeA) x (NL5HazeC)If this post has accurate info..and NHxMH is a direct cross between NH and MH then in my opinion the correct info on the 'NH x MH' percentages should be more like : NHxMH = 12.5% Sk , 25% NL5 , 25% HazeA and 37.5% HazeC.

I say this cause these are the numbers I get when I do the math in a direct cross between NH and MH.So if the most recent post you wrote regarding the mns haze hybrids makeup is accurate , then the Nevilles haze x Mango description on the mns website doesn't seem right to me (if the NHxMH is a direct cross)..

Now ,if the NHxMH percentages you wrote for NHxMH on the strain descriptions are actually right and I am mistaken , then I believe I am not aware of some info about this cross or I didnt understand something right. For example perhaps the 'Neville'sHaze x Mango Haze' is not actually a direct cross between Neville's Haze and Mango Haze as I always believed (from my assumptions from the limited info found on the mns website strain descriptions and other places) but in reality is a more complex hybrid between NH and MH.If that is the case, that would clear my confusion and I would be really interesting to learn what exact cross it is. A few more assumptions in order to try to match your numbers: Perhaps 'NH x MH' is actually : NH x (NH x MH) or if 'NH x MH' was : MH x (NH x MH) ...again none of these two cases give 50%HazeC in order to match the current 'official' description percentages in 'Neville'sHazexMangoHaze'.
So if your numbers on NHxMH's description are accurate and NHxMH has 50%HazeC then I can only assume this strain is an even more complex hybrid or most probably has some other plants in it apart from just Neville's Haze and Mango Haze...

Now if the Neville'sHazeMango was a direct 'Neville'sHaze x SSH' cross the numbers/percentages in your description do match perfectly.

Anyway it would be great if you could pop in and clear things up. Thank you for taking the time to share all these strain details so far... I know this is a long post but I would really appreciate if you took the time to answer all the questions as its really great to learn more things about the background of different mns strains. Keep up spreading fine genetics all over the world and thanks for your time.

Have fun.. L33t

hey l33t, very interesting read bro

Alot easier to read now. Makes perfect sense and I would be eager to find out. I am sure shanti will be keen to clear this up also..

Hi Cytrax and all,

Here is some other interesting info imo I'd like to share with you all, coming from my personal experience with sativa dominant plants such as mns haze hybrids.I have found that its is more efficient to use 8/16 instead of 12/12 and use extra wattage to light the plants to compensate with the decreased energy consumption that comes with using fewer hours of light per day.Has any of you performed similar tests?I would love to hear the results you got and your conclusions.For example I have noticed that you can get better results if you use 3 x 400/600/1000w and run them 8/16hrs per day compared to using 2 x 400/600/1000w bulbs running 12/12hrs per day.(I refer mainly to the case that the grow area is not of a fixed size ) The plants finish faster under a 8/16 light regime so you can match the energy consumption by going up to around 9/15 to compensate which is an added bonus. While in both cases you use almost exactly the same amount of energy/ellectricity , I have definitely noticed the 3 lights give quite better results than the 2 ,and the higher sativa percentage in the genetics the better.

I believe this happens due to multiple reasons.First of all light is not the only factor in a growroom that determines yield.Pot size/root restriction, feeding schedule, plant numbers and grow area (m2) are very important too.The 3 lights not only allow for up to 50% bigger grow area/canopy , which means more plants , but you get better light penetration in the canopy as well due to the 50% more lummen output and also benefit from the two 'overlapping' areas between the 3 lamps, instead of one in the case of 2 bulbs. The plants generally prefer to be able to recieve light from multiple sources or from a light that doesn't come from a constant direction (ie sun or bulbs mounted on a light movers) as this allows for more uniform growth in the top/medium and lower part and at the same time it prevents leaf burn and stress from radiance heat.Note this is quite different than using say 3 x 400w instead of 2 x 600w for the same hours per day (to maintain the same energy usage between these two cases)..In the case of 400's you not only lose efficiency due to less efficacy the 400 watters have compared to the 600's (efficacy: ratio of energy converted to light versus heat ) , ..but plants get less light intensity and light penetration as well due to the exponential light decay as the foliage's distance increases from the light..all that in the attempt to increase the grow area and/or plant number. (The only case where 400's can better than 600w's is only when there are very short and compact plants in the grow area, when light penetration and initial lummen output is not as important any more.But generally speaking they are not as efficient as the 600w bulbs strictly in terms of energy conversion)

I haven't tried to add low wattage bulbs to extend the 8/16 light regime to match the 12/12 light regime and do a comparison yet (with only a minimum added extra energy consumption) ..but this is what I would like to try next. I believe that this will help increase the yields as you extend the flowering period.
I generally believe that if the plants are grown under intense lighting from bottom up for at least 8hrs per day, the light intensity levels for the rest 4hours (in a 12/12 lightcycle) are of less importance.This is partially proved by the fact that outdoor grown plants usually grow more/better in tropical climates under intense sunlight, irrespective of root mass restriction ie pot size etc even if they receive a few hrs less direct sunlight that indoor grown plants under 12/12 'ideal' constant intensity lighting.

I 've also read an interesting experiment from a large scale grower .He was using a 4 bulb setup over a square growing area with sativa dominant hybrid clone . The expreiment was that he turned half (two) of the lights off for the half first and half last hour of the 12/12 light cycle for all the flowering period of the plants and after multiple expiriments he noticed that there weren't any noticable decrease in yields compared to , 'all 4 lights on' for all 12hrs per day .When he turned half of the lights for an hour at the begining and end of the lightcycle the yields started to decrease though...food for thought..

By the way I would like to ask if anyone of you has noticed differences in stretch and perhaps any increases in phychoactivity and complexity of the high with haze hybrids when using a hps/mh combo compared to only hps.I have used mixed lighting a few times and had very good results especially with sativas , I believe it kept them more healthy ..but I 've never run side by side comparison tests.So I 'd love to hear what other people have experienced.I ve also read that there has been some research regarding light regime affecting potency/THC content, it mentioned that plants that grow with less than 10hrs light on they seem to start lose potency any thoughts on that as well?

L33t

Bump............maybe Shanti is not at work,yet!!!HAhahahhaahhaahahaha,ya gotta laugh,ah!!!

Here is some more interesting info I found today.It was over Scorpion's great NH thread over hg420 .Caddis had archived some old posts from the CW days and posted them some time back in there and thought it would be nice to post them here in this thread at mns site, as its all haze/hybrid related info.

shantibaba said:

As for NH cloning depends on the mother you pick.It needs low nutes as all Haze based plants do.It really needs to do everything at 12/12 since NH is a 3/4 haze it stretches alot.It is a very rewarding smoke but picking the female is not always the easiest work.Generally all those that do not finish within 15 weeks at 12/12 or 10/14 I disguard.Then you work on what is left.Once you find the mum you will have already learnt alot about this strain and you will know the rest.NH is fine on rockwool.

Click to expand...

shantibaba said:

This N/Haze is from the parentage of colombian and thai sativas so it has a tendency to stretch and must be restricted to maximum 12 hours even when you root the clones.Yes that is correct use only 12 hours from the day you clone and until they finish 14 weeks later.It is a difficult plant to grow properly but what an incredible flavour of the past shines through.

Click to expand...

And here below is the post I referred to earlier regarding haze hybrids and cold temps.

shantibaba said:

NHaze is effected by lower temperatures as it draws closer to flowering finish time.So it is very probable you noticed a 2 week reduction in flowering.If you would like to know that I stop watering the plant 2 weeks before completion and often turn the lights off for 20 hours to terminate the plants cycle qicker.There are no true rules with 3/4 haze lines. But try and kill them...they are incredible resilient plants.
But stick to the cool nights and try darkness and even torture towards the last 2 weeks .Let me hear the results and all the best Shantibaba

Click to expand...

-

hempy said:

Shanti can i ask you what do you mean by the NH dad being ( its female expression ) I gess curiosety has the better of me lol ..

Click to expand...

shantibaba said:

Hi Hempy
what I was talking about to do with the female expression of the haze(considering it is a male haze) is mainly describing the effects of this 100% haze male when breed and how it comes out in expression of the female plant of that breed. Considering this male goes back to 69 and nearly everything that has the haze label mixed into its genetics is a result of this single male plant...of course I am talking about seeds breed in Holland in the 80s and 90s by various seed companies but not all.

Click to expand...

I hope you find it an interesting read,
l33t

Here is some more info regarding haze breeding

Shantibaba said:

Should Haze be used on the male side only?_or does it matter.
Well again it depends upon what you are wanting to achieve. I use the pure Haze male line for any seed I produce with a haze. But actually sometimes if you have bred with one pure haze and then bred it to another pure haze the combination that are produced can be far more better than sticking to a single haze male. It goes somewhat similar to horse breeding. Get a few charts of well bred thoroughbreds and study the male influence. If a male from generation combines with a male with the same blood line in say two or three generations later the results can be almost magical.

Click to expand...

Another post regarding Haze breeding

Shantibaba over icmag - Oct'09 said:

Hi All

well someone brought this thread to my attention and asked for me to comment...so I will.

In my experiences with the Haze plants, the actual breeding of traits into a plant are not easy.The only way you can attempt this, and it maybe out of the reach of most due to the number of plants required is this. You crack a batch of Haze from a reliable and as pure source as you can find. Keep the best 3 males that exhibit traits you are after in the physical plant. You do the same for 3 females you get from the same batch. You then proceed to pollinate each female to ABC males and crack the seed you make...identify those plants displaying traits you are looking for and pick the male that shows most true in the F1 progeny. This can only be achieved by doing larger samples of seeds...and then you will need to keep a fair few clone back ups until you are sure that certain plants do not shine your way. An example of such breeding was Super Silver Haze and Mango Haze from Mr Nice Seeds. Nev cracked over 1000 seeds and followed them through testing large F1 progeny...Mango female was easy to find for me but the male took a fair while...1.5 years. In that time I killed several hundred F1 seeds to find the male that proved to be most true in its progeny.However now with Nev Haze C, and my MH male I have two plants that combine well and carry certain Haze/sativa traits to all they mate with...but this has now taken quite some years.

So it can occur with luck and it can occur with hard work, but the amount of plants needed to fulfil this type of breeding is much more greater than Indica dominant breeding imo.

All the best Sb

------------------
Link to original post:
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2703885&postcount=29

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Hi SF

I am glad you find that this thread has interesting info , cause that is the reason I wanted to start this thread in the first place , collecting and sharing accurate interesting and useful information regarding MNS haze genetics and its hybrids.

As far as the dates about Haze, according to Shanti the Original Haze genetics Neville got from the HazeBrothers are/come from 69' . SamSkunkman who knew personally the Haze Bros also states that the Haze Bros worked on the Original Haze genetics in Santa Cruz early 70's (~ '70-'75). I will ask shanti for more details. I 've also read from many people that lived there that time that the 'haze' term was used for many sativas/sativa hybrids from late 60's before the OriginalHaze the HazeBros created, but I cant say for sure / comment much on that ..so lets stick with the facts.

SativaFan said:

I'd love to hear what Shanti has to say.

Have you seen those haze plants La Mano Negro posts pics of? Wouldn't you love to have a haze plant like his in your back yard?

SativaFan

Click to expand...

Hey SF,
Mano Negra's plants look very nice indeed.Thanx for the links

I would too love to hear what Shanti has to say. He recently posted (over icmag) some info about the Hazes MNS has.Here is a quote if you wanna read his input.

shantibaba said:

Nevil received seed of from the Haze bros and through alot of trial and error that is where the few Haze selected males and females came from.
I believe Nev and Sam were doing a few things ...but separately and Sam is only speculating about the Haze. The egos got in the way more than anything else. THe only thing that makes me a little skeptical about Sam's view is the point he says he gave Nev his worst Haze for Nev to make seed with. How did he know it was the worst ,had he bred it to other Hazes? Why had he kept it so long, and for what reasons would a good breeder keep a so called bad Haze plant? Why would he agree for Nev to make a batch of seed with it if it was bs? and so on....for me that point seems more ego than reality. To this day both Nevil and I have used Haze seed and selected Haze plants to continue to make old strains as well as develop newer hybrids.SSH is tested and tried by so many people world wide, regardless of all the speculations MNS has the real one that made so many growers happy, what evidence do you all need more?

All the best Sb

Click to expand...

I am still wondering when exactly Nevil got the O.haze seeds from the bros though. That would clear my and your confusion about the dates regarding Haze Bros' OHaze genetics.

L33t

L33T: In regards to my post on ICMAG: I still have myself convinced that BOTH Haze "A" and "C" Males were used in the composition of the Super Silver Haze, but the man needs to chime in here on this:

Originally Posted by shantibaba View Post
"just to clear the air from confusion and before you all go making a legend from myth here is how it was done and is done still....
-Nh is made from Haze C male which is made by two pure haze parents from 1969....then the female side of NH is made from Haze A combined to NL5 or NL5Haze A where Haze A was also made by two pure Haze parents also from 1969
-SSH is made up of Haze C combined to Skunk 1 or Skunk HzC which is the male side, the female side is Haze C combined to NL5 or NL5HzC
-Mango comes from a parallel cross same as SSH but with one difference
Haze A male combined to Sk 1 or Sk HzA being the male plant, the female is NL5HzC....that is the breeding of those three plants
-La Nina is the widow father breed to a pure Haze female...neither A or C by the way so I hope that clears up all your doubts once and for all."

AND:
" Originally Posted by shantibaba
All these descriptions have been written by myself or Neville so they will represent the strain as accurately as our experience goes.
"MR NICE SEEDBANK; ‘MANGO HAZE’
This strain is a parallel line to the Super Silver Haze, i.e. it has the same Haze father and the mother is a sister of the SSH. "


In the first quote he states the Mango Haze is composed of (NL#5/Haze C) (Female) X (Skunk#1/Haze A) (Male). In the second quote, shanti SPECIFICALLY states the mother of the Mango Haze is a SISTER of the SSH. Not to sound like an ass, but my understanding of "Sister" would mean the NL#5/Haze C.

SO, Were there 2 different Skunk#1/ Haze breeders ( A and C) ? It's quite possible I am wrong here, but I seem to remember a picture of a chalkboard with MANY of Nevil's "recipes" that was taken from INSIDE the "Cannabis Castle"....Let me see if I can't dig THAT pic up.... In the meantime, maybe shanti can sort the confusion in my head from smoking all his wonderful gear

hi Iamnotcrazy

Yes shantis posts has left me confused too (regarding SSH & Mango Haze linage). I asked the very same thing in the previous page . On older posts from shanti I read that SSH and Mango Haze have the same father.. but now on his most recent post I read they have the same mother instead...if I understand things correctly the older and newer posts have contradicting information in my opinion.

I would too like to hear what shanti has to say....


Also regarding Neville'sHz x MangoHz. I just cant see how this strain can have 50% Haze'C' in it like shanti says in the description..

If this hybrid is a direct cross between NH and MangoHz and the strain descriptions of the most recent post from shanti have accurate info , the numbers don't match. You would only get 50% Haze'C' if NH was crossed with SSH and not MangoHz..Or perhaps if other plants apart fom MH and NH are involved in that cross..

Anyway I hope shanti can elaborate.


l33t

Hi SF

Well personally I believe he is sincere with mns growers , if I didn't believe that I wouldn't be here in the first place. He has stated that he doesn't have secrets about breeding..and honestly I can't find a reason he'd lie to us , the growers ,.. as no-one can really replicate the MNS strains without the real parents.

..but like 'Iamnotcrazy' and yourself I am confused by his posts regarding SSH/MH and NHxMH so thats why I asked in this thread in the first place (previous page post #4 and #5).

l33t

iamnotcrazy,

After a second thought..The only thing I can think of regarding the SSH/MH 'confusion' is that the NL5HazeC in these two strains is not the same plant but in reality there are 2 different NL5HazeC plants.

So basically the NL5HazeC (female side) in SSH is different than the NL5HazeC (female side) plant in MangoHaze.That is what I believe shanti means when he says the SSH and MH mothers are sisters. But when he wrote these two crosses "have the same father" he must have meant something else and not than they have the same male side which is what we all interpreted .


But I still don't understand how the 'NevillesHz x MangoHz' strain can have 50%HazeC in it.

l33t

hey folks, just a little tidbit of information to add here (seemed like a better place then where i left the discussion, at IC).

i was just re-reading the high times 'king of the cannabis castle' article from the march '87 issue, and had a couple of thoughts.

while the haze bros. seed stock could indeed be from 1969, i personally feel that there's no way that nev could have acquired them before 1980. he would have only been 19 in '69 (though he does state 'i'd grown some weed in the bush in australia').

second, the article states that neville's first dutch grow occurs in 1980 & that his first seeds were nigerian, colombian & mexican. shortly after, nev places an article in high times & begins to sell his first seeds.

i would hazard to guess that the haze was traded/sent/given to neville thereafter by, perhaps, the haze brothers who were obviously savy promoters as well as excellent herb growers ('80s high times have many articles/references about the haze bros., and that's where some of the modern legend comes from).

anyways, just more idle speculation & tall-tale telling!

Hi All

yes it does seem there are alot of speculations going round and who you believe is a matter of choice and trust. But the proof is in the seed...and no matter who says or claims what, it has taken alot of people, not one, to make the industry and the genetic biodiversity what it is today.

I know when your foundations are solid you can build a sturdy structure, that is how MNS was built.We do not claim things that are not facts. We do not name plants or hide origins or say they are secret...because we know what we are talking about according to the plants we have had for many years already.

I did my first indoor crop in Australia in 79 and Nev is older than me by 5 years...just to lay the facts on the table so they need not be speculated on. For the rest I wish you alot of reading and figuring out for the rest....stay safe for the festive season....all the best Sb

Thanks for clearing that up shanti, its nice to hear tidbits of history that are undiluted by the retelling.

A

I seriously doubt Shanti would deliberately mislead us. More likely we'd all like to partake in some of what he is smoking

BTW Shanti, Happy Holidaze and thanks for all the hard work. Then again it doesn't seem so much like work when you love what you do. Keep on doin it for all our sakes Shantibaba. With MUCH Respect, INC